Player Problems with Character Wealth

[Herpes Cineplex]

(As an aside, I'm sure some are thinking, "It's just a matter of what you and your players are happy with." That's all well and good, but the amount of character wealth ties in with the game mechanics to a certain extent, and so it's more an issue of game balance then preference.)

Even if you stick obsessively closely to the wealth-by-level guidelines, there's a lot of wiggle room in CRs. So I think you're seriously overstating things when you say it's more a game balance issue than preference...and by "seriously overstating," I mean you're almost entirely wrong.

You can run a great, balanced, fun game where the PCs have ridiculous amounts of cash and items. You can run a great, balanced, fun game where the PCs are barely able to put together the money for torches and food. You can run a great, balanced, fun game where the PCs have precisely the level of wealth recommended by the DMG and not one copper more or less. And the only thing that'll be equally true about all of those games is that they will require the GM to put in a lot of work and forethought to make sure that the "balanced" part actually happens. Yes, even the "by-the-book" game.


The thing is, the "fun" part ends up having a lot to do with player expectations and preferences. It sounds like your players are expecting that their PCs would have more resources available to them, and feel that they would prefer playing a game where struggling under a budget isn't a huge factor. (And man, having just sent off bill payments today, I can TOTALLY understand that.) There's a lot of good fun to be had in playing powerful and competent characters, after all; poor, disadvantaged, and struggling characters don't necessarily make for a superior game or better roleplaying. Maybe your players would simply prefer to try out all the cool, fun, interesting spells and items in the game?

Also, I think Spatula's got a good point when he suggests that maybe the players don't trust you to maintain the "balanced" part. Even if you can do it, that won't count for anything if the players don't believe that you will. The best you can do if that's the case is to try and prove to them that their fears are groundless, and hope to win their trust.

It won't help if they genuinely just want to play a less restrictive game, but at least it might get them to stop using potential problems with game balance as an excuse.

--
because they really don't need an excuse; that's a good enough reason on its own
ryan

 

[skippy_the_witch]

My homebrew is very different in that it is a Technomagic campaign, which automatically means heavy magic. This completely throws off any usefulness of either EL or wealth tables, as low level characters can easily wipe out lots of other low level characters and even higher level ones with a single grenade placed in the right place. As one of my players put it so well "We are all one blast grenade away from dying". Luckily, the party keeps getting surprise against the goblins ALSO armed with TM weapons.

So my party is very much more powerful in the amount of damage they can do versus their actual level, BUT then again, so are many of the monsters. Same holds true in any d20 Modern world, so it doesn't throw too much off.

I also have a player who is the heir of a very powerful family, and while I did not have him take any wealth feats or like, he has had to make rolls to convince daddy to help bankroll some of his schemes and has had to do major role-playing. That is what is important to me. I have no problem with players wanting to play a rich character or like and do not even require them to waste feats. This is because I can screw with them so easily due to their wealth. They have a much higher profile then other characters, which can mean they have a harder time getting away with things, or at least be able to do things unnoticed. In the case of my player, his family is in a Blood Fued with another house and he literally cannot walk down the street without me making a roll to see if somebody notices him as himself. If he is noticed, he is usually ambushed, as there is a standard bounty on his head.

As for gear, I use modified talisman rules from Oriental Adventures, thus giving lots of single use magic items. I also like "neat" items, items that are no more powerful spell wise then a mastercraft item or tool, or that use a characters own class or feat ability to power (i.e. each use costs a spell slot to use, rage use, etc). True, the "healing stone" allows my shugenja to cast a cure light wounds (which is not one of his known spells) whenever he wants, but at the cost of a 1st level spell slot. I also have a technomancer (modified Eberron artificier) in the party, who makes many of the gizmos and gadgets needed.

skippy
GM of The Cursed Earth

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, it clearly depends on which are the challenges of the adventures

A party of 10th level characters with equipment for 1st level characters: is it really underpowered?

The answer may different whether you are running an adventure for 1st-level, 5th-level or 10th-level parties...

In your campaign, you must have noticed if the game is too easy or too difficult for the players. If it's so challenging that characters are dying frequently and the DM has to hand out some big help deus-ex-machina, you may want to either improve their equipment, give them more xp, or let them meet lower-CR monsters. But if the challenge is at a fine level, so that it's hard enough to have fun, but not so hard that it's frustrating, what's the problem?

Yes indeed the whole game is written up so that characters are assumed to have equipment in line with the chart, so that you can use the CR system with little worry, but your players should worry about the results rather than charts...

 

[Buttercup]

Do your players use Default Array (15 14 13 12 10 8) PCs? If so, and they have less than Standard wealth per level, they will indeed be weaker than indicated by their level. If not, they're tougher, so a bit lower wealth is just helping balance things out again...

This is an excellent point. The question of character wealth is tied in with many different factors. Their ability scores, the monsters you use, the number of magic items available in the game world and so forth.

My players tend to find plenty of treasure, but it's rarely magical. Even if they do find magic items, usually these items don't help them in combat. Magic weapons generally aren't available for sale at any price. Sure, if you want a bag of holding you can buy one if you hunt around. But a magic sword? Ain't gonna happen. So my players just spent the last session buying a house in Freeport, furnishing it and making it secure. Now they're extremely cash-poor, but they've got a place to hang their hats.

But back to the original question. The real problem here seems to be not so much the specific question, but the fact that your players aren't happy with the way you run your game. Personally, I don't think players should be reading the MM and the DMG, and if they do, their *characters* should not know about what they've read.

It sounds to me like your players think D&D is a video game and they're trying to "beat" it. Whereas I and my players think it's a collaborative story that the DM and players tell together. I'm not saying your players are bad, but it's a very different style of play, with different motivations. If the DM and the players don't want the same style of play, problems are sure to arise. This seems to me to be what is happening in this case.

 

[Jupp]

I think if the players start to worry so much about the financial aspect of the game you should think over the way you play the game. Our old 1e/2e campaign group (level 13+) had about 3+ million gold pieces if you counted it all together but we never really bothered about it because we were hooked up in the story and didnt even had the time to start spending the money (nor were we really interested in it) We also owned a brothel and a first class restaurant in Glantry but as soon as we set up some trusted NPCs there we moved on to the next adventure and let them work it out.
Perhaps the problem lies somewhere else and the hagglin' about money is just the result of it?
And like in Buttercups campaign we were never able to buy magic weapons anywhere. The best weapons you were able to buy were masterclass weapons that gave you +1 to damage because they were made by a master smith but that was it. No way you were able to go into the next "Ye trustey magick shoppee" in Glantry to go buy that dragon killing longsword . So we used the money we had to buy those iron rations, beer barrels and a ox cart and the best rooms that were available in the local hotel.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Have the players added everything they have together? Some players think that wealth is hard expendable cash not their used items, swords, armor, horses, henchmen, and so-on.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Some of the characters are well below the wealth level recommended.

However, the fault is their own. They've taken items that they've won from their enemies that they didn't like and sold them for scrolls and potions. Taking 50K worth of magic items and turning it into healing potions is cool, but don't complain to me that you have no money.

 

[Hanuman]

Give the whiney little devils a dozen or so two hundred pound gold ingots in a swamp or a fist sized diamond worth half a mil that nobody has enough money to buy.One of my favorites is they obtain a castle that is fine until the repair bills & monthly expenses start rolling in. Loan sharks can also be one of the most fiendish bunch of monsters in the game if used well.
The aim is to make them happy with what they have so they don't feel screwed and for you to run the game the way you feel benefits everybody. All that cr vs treasure ratio stuff just gives the poor ol DM another thing to worry about(as if there isn't enough to factor in). Remember you are the chef that is making a fine meal, the recipe is a fine guideline but it is your prerogative to add or subtract ingredients to suit your campaign(er dish).



Adversity makes heros, and prosperity makes monsters.
-Victor Hugo-

 

[Pielorinho]

Every week, I have a potluck at my house: other folks bring the drinks, the dessert, and the salad, and I make the main course.

Recently, the other folks have been complaining about the fact that I never use any salt in any of the main courses that I cook. Should I start using salt, or are they just whining?

I see this as a basic hosting issue. Whether the balance is okay is not so important: what's important is that your players are giving you feedback on what would make the game more fun for them. Gaming is all about the fun; unless it's going to make the game dramatically less fun for yourself, I see no reason at all not to respect their feedback.

And treasure in D&D is, for most folks, lots of fun. It's very satisfying to find some cool new trinket that you can use.

Humor them, I say.

Daniel

 

[Dagger75]

In my current campaign, my players are level and have no magic items. I made them roll the wealth tables to see what gear they could have. They all started life in a small fishing villiage where seeing a long sword was pretty rare.

Then the spelljamming vessel crashed in the swamp near there house. So now they are traveling between systems on a 75,000 GP value item, well above there 3rd level limit in the DMG.

On the other hand

In the 20+ level game I ran a year or so ago, the whole party had +5 Weapons, Armor, rings, amulets and a few other stuff. They where serverly UNDEREQUIPED for the game. When they hit 21st level they added up all of there equipment and found they where below what ONE 21st level character should have in gear. That game soon ended.

So really in my expierence wealth is based on the DM and his game not the DMG.