Players, DMs and Save or Die

[Geron Raveneye]

See, and this is the reason why I keep staying in the 4E forum...for discussions that make me check up on rules material again that I haven't read in detail for a few years by now.

You're completely correct with how Gaze attacks work as per RAW. Looked them up in detail in the MM and from there in the DMG (much more important, interestingly), and I must say...I find them pretty much stupid.

First, making everybody make a save just for being in the same area as the monster with a Gaze attack is stupid, since it seems to assume an active Gaze effect (a la Superman's heat vision) that affects everybody just by being in the vincinity, while the MM description sounds as if you have to actively MEET the eyes of the monster to be subject to the Gaze attack. And I doubt that the eyes are the first part of the body characters look at first when meeting a monster. Second, another Gaze attack as an active attack forcing a saving throw on top of it is simply overkill.

I must to thank you for making me check the details out again. Got me some material for house-ruling now.
By the way, with this kind of rules, Death Gaze can indeed be far too deadly. That doesn't make me wanna chuck out the save or die rules from the game, but rather install some sensible rules for Gaze effects, but that's an aside. Somehow that feeds into the whole "new ruleset didn't deal well with the old D&D powers it was supposed to incorporate" trend I see since this discussion started. I wonder if 4E will deal differently with Gaze attacks overall.

About those "delayed death" effects...if you time them in rounds instead of minutes/hours, they are useful for characters still. Imagine Finger of Death hitting a target and causing 1d6 points of Con damage per round until successfully dispelled or otherwise neutralized. That would still work in combat, and depending of the HD of the opponent, cause a hell of a lot of damage per round as secondary effect due to bonus depletion.

And don't worry about exact math...nobody can do that unless using specific numbers. And those will, by default, only work with a specific set of characters, and since you can't include ALL possible combinations of bonuses due to spells, items, abilities, etc, it'd be an exercise in futility. We could maybe agree on the sample characters in the DMG, but there'd probably be a lot of people who'll jump up saying those are totally underpowered or outdated, or whatever. Is why I prefer to discuss the principles of the thing...exact numbers aren't.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

As an interesting tidbit, to see how another version of D20 Fantasy handles something like the Bodak's Death Gaze, I just checked Castles & Crusades (and please NO C&C edition war now, okay?).

A victim meeting the Bodak's gaze must make a successful Constitution save against 21/27 (Prime/Secondary attribute), or die in 1d4 rounds. The process can be stopped by casting Cure Disease, Heal or Cure Critical Wounds on the character before he dies. If the saving throw was successful, the character becomes immune to the effect of that specific Bodak's Gaze attack.

I can live with that. Could the rest here too?

 

[Doc_Klueless]

I can live with that. Could the rest here too?

That's a much more sensible rule. I really don't like SoD (but haven't chimed in previously because I simply don't use them. Thus whether they are in 4e or not, it won't affect me.), but I could run with this method if needed.

 

[Hussar]

That's a pretty cool way of doing it. I think that's much more workable.

Heh, on a side note about CR, The Goblins have something to say about it.

 

[Raven Crowking]

As an interesting tidbit, to see how another version of D20 Fantasy handles something like the Bodak's Death Gaze, I just checked Castles & Crusades (and please NO C&C edition war now, okay?).

A victim meeting the Bodak's gaze must make a successful Constitution save against 21/27 (Prime/Secondary attribute), or die in 1d4 rounds. The process can be stopped by casting Cure Disease, Heal or Cure Critical Wounds on the character before he dies. If the saving throw was successful, the character becomes immune to the effect of that specific Bodak's Gaze attack.

I can live with that. Could the rest here too?

In the case of the Bodak (in particular), I would say:

A victim meeting the Bodak's gaze must make a successful Fort save (DC 15) each round, or suffer 1d6 Con damage. If the saving throw was successful, the character becomes immune to the effect of that specific Bodak's Gaze attack for 24 hours. This attack has a range of 30 feet. The save DC is Charisma-based.​

(Of course, you'd better adjust the CR now as well! )

This is similar to how I would handle, say, a medusa's petrification. Overall, I prefer save-or-effect to save-or-die, but I also think that save-or-die has its place. However, if bodaks are rare monsters in your game, so that meeting one should be more frightening, then SoD is appropriate.

Similarly, even using something like I outlined above, or like the C&C version Geron Raveneye outlined, one could call these "lesser bodaks" and keep the original as "master bodaks". In fact, if I did this, I would change the master bodak's power to say "Humanoids who die from this attack are transformed into lesser bodaks 24 hours later." Note that, in both example alternate write-ups there is no mention of "lesser" bodaks creating spawn.

With this sort of setup, the presence of lesser bodaks should be a clue that a master bodak is around somewhere.

RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In the case of the Bodak (in particular), I would say:

A victim meeting the Bodak's gaze must make a successful Fort save (DC 15) each round, or suffer 1d6 Con damage. If the saving throw was successful, the character becomes immune to the effect of that specific Bodak's Gaze attack for 24 hours. This attack has a range of 30 feet. The save DC is Charisma-based.​

(Of course, you'd better adjust the CR now as well! )

This is similar to how I would handle, say, a medusa's petrification. Overall, I prefer save-or-effect to save-or-die, but I also think that save-or-die has its place. However, if bodaks are rare monsters in your game, so that meeting one should be more frightening, then SoD is appropriate.

Similarly, even using something like I outlined above, or like the C&C version Geron Raveneye outlined, one could call these "lesser bodaks" and keep the original as "master bodaks". In fact, if I did this, I would change the master bodak's power to say "Humanoids who die from this attack are transformed into lesser bodaks 24 hours later." Note that, in both example alternate write-ups there is no mention of "lesser" bodaks creating spawn.

With this sort of setup, the presence of lesser bodaks should be a clue that a master bodak is around somewhere.

RC

Sounds like an interesting idea. At least this time, the big "Warning Sign" on the monster is at least implied in the mechanics.

I like the C&C version, too (assuming that the listed spells are available to characters that can reasonably encounter a Bodak.)
I think I might add a further thing: Killing the Bodak stops the effect. Even if the players can't heal in time (or at all), they have at least some chance to destroy the Bodak before their comrade is dead. (and the affected character has a real reason to go "all-out")

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I like the idea of the effect stopping when the bodak is killed. I also like the idea of a "Master Bodak", an undead creature (or more to the original bodak, a demonic being, Orcus sends his greetings ) so terrible it indeed kills with one glance, creating "bodak spawn" from its victims. All great ideas. See, there's room for every kind of effect, as long as it is done with a little care.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think I might add a further thing: Killing the Bodak stops the effect.

In my version, since you have to meet the bodak's gaze, killing it stops the effect. Also, you get a new save each round, and don't have to make any more re: that particular bodak once you succeed once.

RC

 

[jester47]

I like save or die. But I think it should only be used for very special climactic moments.

 

[howandwhy99]

Save or Die works when you know you are facing Save or Die creatures / challenges. Finger of Death was as powerful as Wish in the old editions. Advanced tried to have higher level spells, but few folks bothered trying to play those levels. Spell design in high level AD&D is/was flawed and that, at least, I am glad they are changing.

Save or Die & Wish at 30th level now? That I could see.