Players establishing facts about the world impromptu during play

pemerton

Legend
If the idea is we have an initial premise and then see where things go, then asking provocative questions and building on the answers will screw things up.
This I agree with! The flip side is that if one doesn't want to be a neutral GM (I really don't) then how does the game system handle this? A system like Moldvay Basic really doesn't. I once would have thought that Classic Traveller also needs a neutral referee; but I've discovered (via actual play) that it doesn't, and can be approached in a much more PbtA style (and maybe to some extent that was even anticipated back in the 1977 rulebooks).

Adapting agenda/principles, system and so on so they all work together seems like common sense to me.
 

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pemerton

Legend
The first game I'm aware of that's genuinely N, and the first actively categorised Storygame was My Life With Master in 2003. (Following the definitions Pendragon is also a Storygame but the term was invented in an RPG.net flamewar where people were denying that MLWM was an RPG because it wasn't open ended and Paul Czege had better things to do so proposed a new term just to get them to shut up).
I'm not sure what you mean by genuinely.

If you look at systems that Edwards characterises as aimed at, and capably of reliably producing, narrativist play then one of the earliest is Prince Valiant (late 80s). The first system I know of to use scene/closed-conflict resolution is Maelstrom Storytelling around 1997 (and Edwards references it multiple times in his "Story Now" essay). HeroWars is another important narrativist game that Edwards discusses extensively, and it's c 2000.
 


kenada

Legend
Supporter
I don't agree with this.

Understanding how a game like Rolemaster or RuneQuest works is not just a theoretical concern if you're playing it! And Edwards' own deep interest in BRP and Champions shows that it's more than just a theoretical concern for him.
That might not have been the best choice of words. There just seems to be a comparative dearth of discourse on the Right to Dream. Well, Edwards does say that it’s a fringe interest, so perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised by that.
 

pemerton

Legend
That might not have been the best choice of words. There just seems to be a comparative dearth of discourse on the Right to Dream. Well, Edwards does say that it’s a fringe interest, so perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised by that.
But not fringe in RPGing! He thinks it's been the predominant mode since the early-to-mid 80s.

One oddity of his framework is that he groups two things together under the "right to dream" that most RPGers see as quite different: RM/RQ/HERO-esque "purist for system"; and DL-ish/CoC-ish "high concept simulationism".

He groups them together because, in his view, both prioritise exploration as an end in itself: the former is exploring the system and its ramifications/outworkings (like your "experiment" metaphor upthread); the latter is exploring (without further metagame priority/provocation during play) the setting and/or characters and/or situation.

(A parenthetical elaboration on the second parenthetical remark in the previous paragraph: of course there is a metagame/genre reason why in DL we have characters like the "odd couple" twins, the anguished half-elf whose former lover has turned to evil, etc. But the system has no way for those metagame concerns to manifest in play itself - eg there is no rule whereby Tanis's player can get a bonus to an action because he is trying to save Kitiara from a fall from her dragon. Pendragon still counts as simulationism in Edwards' view because the influence of passions and traits is driven purely by system logic rather the injection of metagame priorities into resolution: the contrast would be with spiritual attributes in The Riddle of Steel or with bonus dice from emotion/passion/relationships in Prince Valiant.)

Now here's my metaphor/analogy-expressed conjecture as to why Edwards' grouping of these two modes of simulationism causes so much drama and pushback among so many RPGers: suppose someone turned up among a group of motoring enthusiasts who, moreover, have only the vaguest awareness of and interest in yachting and flying. And suppose one told them that the best explanatory framework for vehicles draws three fundamental distinctions: planes, boats and automobiles of all sorts (cars, motorbikes, trucks, etc). Those enthusiasts may well (i) find the proposed scheme to unduly prioritise some niche interests, and (ii) to miss all the fundamental distinctions (eg between station wagons and sedans and 4 wheel drives/SUVs and utes and various sorts of trucks etc, all of which serve very different purposes for their various drivers, handle very differently, etc).

If, as a RPGer, the main approaches you're familiar with are (i) system-driven sandbox, or some development of that in the RQ or RM-esque direction and (ii) "story"-focused RPGing like DL, CoC, VtM etc, then a classificatory scheme that bundles them together as various ways of prioritising exploration will seem unhelpful, and like it misses the point. This is why I think Edwards work on "the right to dream", while very very insightful, and highly applicable, has had relatively little traction among those whose RPGing it describes.
 

S'mon

Legend
He groups them together because, in his view, both prioritise exploration as an end in itself: the former is exploring the system and its ramifications/outworkings

Do people actually play for this? I think I understand 'high concept simulationism' but I don't think I understand this 'purist for system' thing at all. AFAICT people use these systems for world simulation, not as an end in themselves.
 

pemerton

Legend
Do people actually play for this? I think I understand 'high concept simulationism' but I don't think I understand this 'purist for system' thing at all. AFAICT people use these systems for world simulation, not as an end in themselves.
Purist for system is a particular approach to world/setting simulation: it relies on the system without needing stipulation/perturbation by "run time" input. This is what Rolemaster aspires to. I GMed RM almost exclusively for 19 years. As well as playing it I've read a lot of stuff for and about it, and used to participate on the ICE forums. Edwards' account of purist-for-system values/aspirations is spot on.

He has in mind, as core examples, RQ and a certain sort of approach to Champions/HERO. But it generalises to RM without any need for adjustment!
 

aramis erak

Legend
Do people actually play for this? I think I understand 'high concept simulationism' but I don't think I understand this 'purist for system' thing at all. AFAICT people use these systems for world simulation, not as an end in themselves.
I have run around 300 game editions/systems over the last 40 years. Many of them just to find out how the rules impact play.

the exemplar narrativist games that i talk about are ones that mechanics are there to control who adds what... John Wick's Blood & Honor and Houses of the Blooded, where the roll is not success/failure determination, but setting who picks success. Or like Fiasco, where the rules are about who is narrating.

Vampire isn't a terribly good simulation; it's somewhere in the space between gamist and simulationist. It has some narrative concessions... the willpower/nature mechanics and the autosuccess mechanic... but it is not enough to pull it to the center, let alone to the N point of the triangle.

No RPG can be purely any one of the GSN points... Fiasco and HotBlooded both come real close, but the gamist aspects (tying the dice pool to skills suitable for the situation and declared action, even if not the primary actor within that declared action)... D&D always has had some concessions to story flow. Phoenix Command has some gamist concessions - simplification for play and competitition - despite being table-driven in search of realistic woundngl
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
I think it would be wrong to conclude that because a game has some game elements in it that it is gamist. I think games that would cater to some style will always have some rules.

For me, I think (based upon my understanding of GSN) that my games have hovered between gamist and simulationist.

The rules very much are the physics of the world. So wizards always knew there were 9 spell levels and that they got such and such spells at various levels. That was in world knowledge. And before you say this is obvious, I've had others act shocked I considered it in character knowledge.

My players very much would try to use the rules to their advantage to figure out a way to win and defeat their enemies. They also though very much want an interesting world worth exploring and learning about. Both needs are met in my games I think. I present good gamist challenges but I also provide a world that makes sense and is consistent.
 


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