D&D General Players make the rolls and Defensive Reactions

[kolya]

As a GM, I have a lot of things to do and think about. Putting all the rolls in the player's hands takes one of those things off my plate/out of my head.

 

[Garthanos]

Just requires valuing those in the game. In my last game, sessiin a 1 hp damage action caused a concentration failure that was big for the scene and success. Same character could have went with a stronger effect on another foe, but this was a "defensive choice" to try and force more saves hoping that broke concentrstion.

It was a choice using offensive options though ones mechanically endowed by the game even if it was less offensive than the other. It did not occur at the point where you were already being attacked but in a rare window (but yes concentration is nice) how do you react to that sweeping sword blow or already launched fireball remains passive and not a tactical choice regardless if you hand the player the dice or roll yourself. And really who rolls the die is the functional context we were talking about .... i am saying I would like more than just that. For instance if the choice allows my character to move gaining a defense bonus but penalizes subsequent attacks that would be an example. (that reactive move might advance my goals of escaping regardless of whether I still got hit)

Ulterior motive - The tactical choices in D&D land are generally way too dominated by FOCUS FIRE....this could reduce that benefit a bit - Note if the character does move and lose some to hit the choice to attack more enemies instead of focusing may improve your defense when you are surrounded. (even if the attacks became at a penalty)

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I have occasionally played in or run a game that does the opposite of this. To wit, players never touch dice. This works better in games where players do not have a lot of specifically delineated abilities (i.e. Holmes or Moldvay basic).

It requires a lot of trust on the part of the players, but can be very immersive, as the players have nothing to interact with but the fiction.

 

[5ekyu]

It was a choice using offensive options though ones mechanically endowed by the game even if it was less offensive than the other. It did not occur at the point where you were already being attacked but in a rare window (but yes concentration is nice) how do you react to that sweeping sword blow or already launched fireball remains passive and not a tactical choice regardless if you hand the player the dice or roll yourself. And really who rolls the die is the functional context we were talking about .... i am saying I would like more than just that. For instance if the choice allows my character to move gaining a defense bonus but penalizes subsequent attacks that would be an example. (that reactive move might advance my goals of escaping regardless of whether I still got hit)

Ulterior motive - The tactical choices in D&D land are generally way too dominated by FOCUS FIRE....this could reduce that benefit a bit - Note if the character does move and lose some to hit the choice to attack more enemies instead of focusing may improve your defense when you are surrounded. (even if the attacks became at a penalty)

Actually, the 1hp was a result of hellish rebuke, explicitly a reaction to an attack hitting, and the save reduced it to 1d10 and they rolled a 1.

It was "endowed" by the player having made the choices that gave that PC that option.

I honestly see no connection between who rolls the die and what choices are made.

But, while I dont share maybe your keen division between an offense and a defense, there are a good number of similar options characters can have built into their characters if this kind of reactive defense is desired.

Shield spells come to mind and are easily available - magic initiate feat or class level.
Absorb elements.
Battle master has some reactive defense maneuvers- also martial adept open those up to plenty and I have reskinned them as "magic tricks" to explain that fest for an illusionist.
Mobility may make spreading attacks across a couple folks to prevent them getting AO as you trot by.
Rogues have "use reactions to..." kinds of defenses
Depending on bard schools - inspiration die can serve a lot of purposes, I think even one might be able to hit enemy concentration checks. Have to go look.
Isnt there a "you swing st me I make you hit thrm" - maybe under a monk?
Heck, I even had a character "ready the dodge action until blah blah " so he wasnt dodging when the minion struck him and waited for the heavy hitter to go after him only realizing he was swinging at a dodger instead of other easier tu hurt targets.

Basically, not gonna try to cover all the various ways but, if you want reactive defensive choices, there are a lot of them and you can create a character who has those at their disposal.


But I dont know what thus has to do with what die who is rolling or zing.., so...

From a narrative standpoint, when the PC makes his armor roll vs the orc swing I narrate using the same tools I will when I roll for the orc, like ssy in a pick-up game. Seems to work fine.

 

[Garthanos]

But, while I dont share maybe your keen division between an offense and a defense, there are a good number of similar options characters can have built into their characters if this kind of reactive defense is desired.

Sure and those are good however they really are exceptions to the rule about defense being passive and sure you narrate about the same way not sure why that is an issue. However If the person has a reactive option to me it makes things tactical and enriches the narrative more. Hence the dodge/parry tactic choice from old rune-quest years was a standard built option for everyone. (Runequest also had a riposte option if you were high enough skill)

 

[5ekyu]

Sure and those are good however they really are exceptions to the rule about defense being passive and sure you narrate about the same way not sure why that is an issue. However If the person has a reactive option to me it makes things tactical and enriches the narrative more. Hence the dodge/parry tactic choice from old rune-quest years was a standard built option for everyone. (Runequest also had a riposte option if you were high enough skill)

To me most everything in 5e is the exception, not the rule. There are examples across many if not most classes, some races and with feats you get to any character do that you can add these to your character and play.

In doing so, you likely wind up passing on like 80% of the rest.

These are choices you make in creating a character.

Heck, I seem to recall a YouTube about how to build the most intrusive/reactive character by mulyi-classing through to get do many of the reactive adjustment sbilities- it's a friggin lot.

So, ok, yeah it's not "how runequest does it" but if you want reactive options for defense or adjustments on the fly, there's a lot in 5e. You just have to choose that over other stuff - not get it all.

 

[Garthanos]

but if you want reactive options for defense or adjustments on the fly, there's a lot in 5e. You just have to choose that over other stuff - not get it all.

You may have convinced me about the number though some are very situational but others the limit of 1 reaction per turn seems a serious limit on all of these things that I really like... and which make combat feel vivid. Hmmmm kind of feels like action surge ought to allow a reaction... but compared to a multi-attack that might be a waste.

 

[5ekyu]

You may have convinced me about the number though some are very situational but others the limit of 1 reaction per turn seems a serious limit on all of these things that I really like... and which make combat feel vivid. Hmmmm kind of feels like action surge ought to allow a reaction... but compared to a multi-attack that might be a waste.

The reason I like the reaction limit is the aspect of meaningful choice - which option against which threat do you use, knowing it leaves other reactions off the table. In complex circumstances, thsts a tough call, especially if you have key features nested in - say mage slayer and hellish rebuke to force disadvantaged concentration checks or sentinel and AO, etc. Whether to use it first chance or not is key.

 

[Garthanos]

The reason I like the reaction limit is the aspect of meaningful choice - which option against which threat do you use, knowing it leaves other reactions off the table. In complex circumstances, that's a tough call, especially if you have key features nested in - say mage slayer and hellish rebuke to force disadvantaged concentration checks or sentinel and AO, etc. Whether to use it first chance or not is key.

Oh yes I do agree that is part of if not basic to the idea of tactics and there can potentially be some very cool things going on this is good, but I am wondering being so heavily constrained reactively after a time might feel like a "lower level" limit not sure what to swap it out for so that might be hogwash. I mean offense in multi attacks for the fighter is growing a lot. My first idea is just to let action surge be in reaction a small change in some ways and one has not then ditched that element of choice just added another option for the action surge resource which seems to almost always end up just another multi-attack. I did just notice the Cavalier has that very interesting bonus action for its specialty mark but only as a long rest limit (fun effect but is it that big of a boost?)
edit - I hadn't seen Tunnel Fighter that is potentially some beat down in multi-opportunity attacks and not even fighter specific.

 

[5ekyu]

Oh yes I do agree that is part of if not basic to the idea of tactics and there can potentially be some very cool things going on this is good, but I am wondering being so heavily constrained reactively after a time might feel like a "lower level" limit not sure what to swap it out for so that might be hogwash. I mean offense in multi attacks for the fighter is growing a lot. My first idea is just to let action surge be in reaction a small change in some ways and one has not then ditched that element of choice just added another option for the action surge resource which seems to almost always end up just another multi-attack. I did just notice the Cavalier has that very interesting bonus action for its specialty mark but only as a long rest limit (fun effect but is it that big of a boost?)
edit - I hadn't seen Tunnel Fighter that is potentially some beat down in multi-opportunity attacks and not even fighter specific.

Iirc tunnel fighter is old UA playtest material so use at your own risk. Old UA material means it didnt pass muster. They never take crap down and the stuff that works gets published.

Anyway... just sayin'