Players vs monsters-as-players?

[Sunseeker]

I have been digging out my old 4E books from storage but have sadly been unable to find my DMGs or MMs. I know how to run the game, but lack handy statistics for the monsters. So I was thinking, instead of having players fight "monsters", what if I had them fight bad-guys built like players? I realize that this would substantially increase the power of NPCs because of the suite of powers they'd recieve, but I'm curious if anyone's tried this, and what the results were?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

PCs are very front-loaded and also have a lot of damage recovery capacity, so first of all it is kind of 'rocket tag' as a PC can't take the heavy damage they can dish out, but then they can also repair a lot of damage, so it can become a bit frustrating.

In general whichever side has a couple guys getting the first initiative has a big advantage. Monsters tend to have a lot of hit points, but considerably lower and more constant damage output, with just a few mild 'knockback' abilities designed to create tension at the start of a fight, but not to murderize the opposition. Also NPC characters have no reason to hold back, they don't need to worry about a daily resource economy, so they will just alpha strike, forcing the PCs to do the same, which will tend to create 5 minute workdays.

 

[Sunseeker]

PCs are very front-loaded and also have a lot of damage recovery capacity, so first of all it is kind of 'rocket tag' as a PC can't take the heavy damage they can dish out, but then they can also repair a lot of damage, so it can become a bit frustrating.

In general whichever side has a couple guys getting the first initiative has a big advantage. Monsters tend to have a lot of hit points, but considerably lower and more constant damage output, with just a few mild 'knockback' abilities designed to create tension at the start of a fight, but not to murderize the opposition. Also NPC characters have no reason to hold back, they don't need to worry about a daily resource economy, so they will just alpha strike, forcing the PCs to do the same, which will tend to create 5 minute workdays.

So, maybe just make the low level "monster nPC" with just the at-will abilities? Maybe one encounter or daily to keep it interesting? I don't mind the lower HP on the NPCs though, I LOVE LOVE LOVE 4E's minions.

I'm not worried about the 5-minute workday. I tend to leave my players in control of how many fights they pick in a day and I don't run long dungeon grinds anywho.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So, maybe just make the low level "monster nPC" with just the at-will abilities? Maybe one encounter or daily to keep it interesting? I don't mind the lower HP on the NPCs though, I LOVE LOVE LOVE 4E's minions.

I'm not worried about the 5-minute workday. I tend to leave my players in control of how many fights they pick in a day and I don't run long dungeon grinds anywho.

Well, its not at all hard to make your own monsters either. I'm sure you can find an example MM3 style statblock or 10 out there (many are on this site if you search for them). The 'MM3 on a business card' PDF is floating around which shows the basic math, and you can find a copy of the damage tables produced by Wreccan (Mark Mornard) in a recently necro'ed thread right here. DMG2 also has suggestions for 'Companion Characters' which are basically just monsters, though tweaked a bit to provide service as allies instead of enemies. You can also apply the theme and template rules from DMG1 and DMG2.

So, just make up your own monsters. It takes a bit of trial-and-error to get them exactly right, but its not THAT hard.