Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[Numion]

See that I would have a problem with. A completely undetectable curse worked into their magic items? Wow. What fun.

Not a surprising suggestion, considering that the topic is pretty much about DM control. Banning all sale of magic items lets the DM control when, how and what magic items the PCs use.

Next logical step is that if the DM has to concede and let some items be bought .. the items won't do what the players want, but what the DM wants.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If you go to the magic shop with your big bag full of 50,000 gp or so to get a +5 stuff, this isn't magic anymore. This is the fantasy equivalent of a modern technological equipment. As such, IMO it loses all flavor of what magic is supposed to represent.

In terms of game world mangling hobbies, buying a +5 sword is pretty much the most innocent thing a PC could do. He could raise an army and raze a kingdom for that kind of money in a realistic world.

I am not advocating catering to the mere whims of players or making it easy on them, but "you have a mountain of money but cannot buy anything you would ever want" is the opposite of fantasy -- it is a lame morality play.

 

[Yair]

I generally let people buy what they want. They would need to find the right place to buy it from, which in some cases may be difficult, and they may need to convince the sellers that making the item is a good idea (the high priest of Pelor won't make a Holy Sword for anyone for just for a pile of cash), but they can get it.
The main reason is character customization. I just want my players to have whatever characters they want to, I don't want to limit them. If they want some item, just let me know and I'll come up with a way to allow them to get it or purchase it (if it's within their power level). Why not? I want them to have fun.
Another reason is that I think that kind of world is more believable. Trade in magic items in a world run by the D&D 3E rules is almost a given; there is just so much magic around, and the characters are so reliant on it, it has to be tradeable.

Of course, it all depends on the campaign. I won't be allowing purchase of magic items in a Midnight campaign (although bartering may work, say for a supply of wheat...). My recent campaign had NO magic items except evil ones, and so the characters had none (but DID have their effects, through "divine blessings"). And so on.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

There are 3 appropriate spellcasters in the group. None of the three has taken any Item Creation Feats at All. Zilch. One is a 9th Level Mage, One is a 9th Level Sorceror and the other is a 10th Level Mage.

The two players who whine run 2 of these characters.

I'm all for them creating things, but they won't.

Magic to me is special, as many have said. They have enough money to create items, but not enough with the mark up of the DM guide to purchase things.

Well then, that sounds like plain whining. Creation feats are even more valuable in a low magic world -- you get better bang for the xp.

But I am confused. Are they actually asking to buy things when they do not have the money? What are they asking for exactly?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I don't understand how in a world where something is plentiful that no one would ever think to buy or sell it. "So valuable that it will never be sold" and "plentiful" are mutually exclusive, in my book. And how do the players come across these plentiful magic items? If they trade gems/items/services for magic items, that's still buying and selling them. Or maybe they're so powerful and valuable that they're all lying around in a dungeon somewhere.

Well put.

If we are not talking about worlds designed to be magic poor, that is a separate subject, but a campaign where wealth levels are within 50% of the DMG suggestions for level, the PCs will run into so many magic items by level 10 that a market for magic would have to exist (even if Ye Olde Magick Shoppe may not).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That's not an entirely perfect analogy. Historically, no one was forced to place their own life force into a manufactured good to make it, as is the case with magic items (XP). I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but it seems to me that it would be much more rare than its price would indicate (and its price would already indicate that it is rare).

Seems like an irrelevant argument.

The price of a +3 Longsword in gold is much less important than the value of the sword compared to a +2 Longsword. The market for magic items does not exist because of my whim for a +3 sword, it must exist if I can acquire a bag full of +1 and +2 weapons. How coin figures into this is a minor detail.

 

[Belen]

My last campaign allowed the players to buy the equipment they wanted. It was a nightmare where they were easily 3 levels above the CR of any creature equal to their level.

I will never allow PCs to buy the magic items they want again. In the future, if they want something bad enough, then they will be forced to barter with temples, guilds or individual mages. Gold alone will not be enough to secure the item. They will need to do something for them in return.

It's not that magic is rare in my world. Magic is controlled in my world by the wealthy. Just like a normal citizen of the USA does not own a M! Abrams tank, a normal citizen of my world will not own a +5 suite of plate or a flametongue sword. The PCs either have to become part of the establishment or work for the very powerful in order to get items.

Of course, any mage or cleric is free to make them items with the proper feats as long as they obtain the proper materials. Players who want to make an item will need to adventure for the proper ingrediants. Of course, that adventuring will gain them the XP needed to make the item etc.

It's idiotic to think that they will be able to just buy what they want.

As for selling items, the PCs better not do that too often or the establishment will want them removed. It is far better to either upgrade an item or get some other adventurer to do something for you.

For instrance, you hear that your old village is threaten by a troll. However, you're on a quest for the king and you cannot attend to it. You offer another adventurer an item and some money to help out the village.

So no, no player can expect to buy or sell items in my game. Items can be found, commissioned, quested or made and that is it.

 

[jasper]

Oh please I am old school too. I guess I played on the wrong side of tracks and with bad players. In the beginning magic shops were in every big town until we started knocking them off and stealing the loot. They did it to my world which in turn I did in theirs. Which then started either every magic shop being ran by a 20+ level wizard, or god. Then end with the magic shop from the n-dimension which would appear when you needed it and ran by a 20+ level wizard with lots of guards.
Sorry played in different editions, on different coasts, on different continents. It is the players not the system or computer games or immature players or current culture.

 

[swrushing]

I never have and never will. It's just me and my style, and I am very up front with it when starting a new game or group. However I've noticed that with the advent of 3E, a few of my players are very adamant that the rules indicate that they are allowed to purchase magic items.

The first thing to keep in mind is that 3e is the first edition of DnD to IIRC take "wealth" into account into its "balance" system. PCs at level X are expected to have a certain amount of wealth and that is factored into the balance estimates.

By "wealth" the system doesn't think bags of coins or sacks of Gms but "useful items of value x". After a very short time, magic items = wealth since the mundane items are no longer that expensive.

Now, most of the actual loot one gets by the usual tables is in coins and gems and art and such, and the system does EXPECT as part of its balance equation that this will be cashed in more or less for useful items. Whether this is easy or difficult, quick or slow is up to you but the presumption is "it happens".

In the DMg they give guidelines for city size and item availability as a handle on this.

Given this, its perfectly reasonable for some player to figure thats expected and an important part of things. if they see the encounters you provide as more difficult than they think they ought to be, and you keep a tighter rein on item purchase so that a lot of their "wealth" stays in "useless coin and gem" form, they might get the notion that "we got less useful stuff than is expected" and "the scenarios are harder than they should be" are linked.

Numerous examples of WOTC and other products listing specifically "EL lowered due to the adversary being less equipped" probably add to this.

Now, of course, "you cannot buy items" and "you have less than expected useful gear" do not follow hand in hand. In your game because they cannot buy items, you may be adjusting your loot lists to account, giving more useful items and less coin and gem. You may be having NPCs giving "payment" and "rewards" for services rendered in useful items rather than sacks of useless coins. There are certainly many ways you handle the "coins are not going to help you" expected-wealth-balance-cr thingy.

 

[Storm Raven]

If you go to the magic shop with your big bag full of 50,000 gp or so to get a +5 stuff, this isn't magic anymore. This is the fantasy equivalent of a modern technological equipment. As such, IMO it loses all flavor of what magic is supposed to represent.

So, you are saying that magic is incredibly valuable, but that no one will ever buy or sell it? I believe that is called "implausible".