Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[Storm Raven]

So... you can suspend disbelief on the magic and the elves and the dragons kidnapping the princesses only to put them in heavily guarded towers... but any deviation from the laws of Adam Smith is a bridge too far?

Yes. Elves and magic are conventions of the genre. We assume reality differs from ours in that it has races of intelligent beings other than our own, and a form of physics that allows for manipulation of energy in ways other than those we understand.

Humans being fundamentally different in their nature than they are in our reality is not a convention of the genre. Humans failing to commodify valuable items (as they have always done with all items of value in history) is just beyond reasonable.

 

[Henry]

Only if you think xp aren't worth anything.

Actually it's included too:

Breastplate of Command:...
Strong enchantment; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, mass charm monster; Price 25,400 gp; Cost 10,975 gp + 850 XP

So default price would be a bit over double, compensating for the XP lost. This is, of course, subject to individual DM ruling.

And frankly, when I'm a player, I'm just fine with the DM "controlling" when I get magic items, kind of the way I am with him "controlling" what monsters I encounter.

That's a "me, too", since I played this way for years - why get upset if a DM chooses this avenue for a future game? Then again, I liked Drow weapons that decayed in sunlight, too.

 

[fusangite]

And this is different from buying and selling magic items how? You are just quibbling over the mechanic of the market, not the existence of the market itself.

It's not merely arguing about the mechanic; it is arguing about the circumstances. In my model, there is no presumption that:
(a) the characters have access to an NPC who can make the item
(b) the characters are deemed worthy by the NPC to have the item made for them
(c) the NPC is inclined at the time the characters want the item to part with the xp necessary to create it

Let me express what I mean in terms of silk:
(a.i) the characters might not be in a place that is receiving silk imports
(a.ii) there might not be anyone in the characters' region capable of actually working with silk
(b.i) the characters might find a merchant with silk who is saving up his limited supply for when a noblewoman or someone else capable of showing off his product in the right circles feels inclined to purchase it
(b.ii) the characters might find a merchant who is a member of a guild that only allows the sale of aristocratic clothes to aristocrats and deems it unlawful to sell aristocratic clothes to people of no rank
(c) the tailor might be keeping this bolt of silk on display in his booth in order to attract future customers; he might therefore decide that he will become just another tailor of he gives up his one bolt of silk and becomes just like all the other tailors in town

So, the fact that there exists a silk market in the world does not automatically mean that the PCs can go out and buy themselves silk outfits.

The ability of characters to purchase magic items is conditioned by at least three factors:
(a) the existence of the item
(b) the availability of the item
(c) the values of the individual capable of obtaining the item for the characters

Or better still, how about children? Children are much more abundant than silk. The fact that it is undeniably true that people are selling children in this world does not make it true that the purchase of children is an opportunity available to everyone.

 

[fusangite]

Actually it's included too:
So default price would be a bit over double, compensating for the XP lost. This is, of course, subject to individual DM ruling.

It's worth double if 1xp = 2.03gp. It's being produced at cost if 1xp=16.97gp. But in my personal schema for valuing xp, they are worth a whole lot more than that so I have trouble with the idea of a rational NPC selling his xp so cheaply.

 

[Bregh]

And in the end, that's simply saying that a market is based upon money, since ultimately, almost everything can be expressed in a cash value. The "something else" you are buying and selling magic items with will be translated into a cash value (or it has no value to begin with), and then you are just back to "cash for magic", where you started.

Right. So, show me where the cash value for the following are given in the D&D books so I know how much to charge my PCs for the following, as I custom fashion a new magic item:

The breath of a fish.
The sound of a cat stalking.
Moonlight reflected in Kheled-zaram.
Tears freely shed from a stone.
The thought of a god.

Not everyone's campaign is going to reflect the nature of the market you're presupposing must exist there--at least one that's based entirely on value that can be expressed in gold. This works fine in games where a +1 (or +5) sword is only ever described as that, a +1 (or +5) sword. But not everyone is going to be satisfied with such mundanity, especially if they're shooting for something else.

Though, of course, there's always the possibility that we're, you know, playing D&D wrong, or something.

 

[Storm Raven]

It's not merely arguing about the mechanic; it is arguing about the circumstances. In my model, there is no presumption that:
(a) the characters have access to an NPC who can make the item
(b) the characters are deemed worthy by the NPC to have the item made for them
(c) the NPC is inclined at the time the characters want the item to part with the xp necessary to create it

And all of these are just quibbling over the mechanic, not the existence of such a market. This is still buying and selling magic items, just with some market complications thrown in. It seems analogous to trying to get a piece of artwork made in Renaissance Italy, which probably works out to a a pretty

Let me express what I mean in terms of silk:
(a.i) the characters might not be in a place that is receiving silk imports

But if they offer enough money for it, someone will likely try to bring silk to where they are.

(a.ii) there might not be anyone in the characters' region capable of actually working with silk

But if they offer enough money for it, someone will likely show up with some.

(b.i) the characters might find a merchant with silk who is saving up his limited supply for when a noblewoman or someone else capable of showing off his product in the right circles feels inclined to purchase it

But if they offer him enough money, he will likely be willing to forego those potential future profits for actual current profits.

(b.ii) the characters might find a merchant who is a member of a guild that only allows the sale of aristocratic clothes to aristocrats and deems it unlawful to sell aristocratic clothes to people of no rank

In which case, the characters will likely try to purchase noble titles. Which was a common enough practice that it would not be surprising. Or they could forge documents showing their pedigree, or pretend to be nobles from another country (both of which were common). Or bribe the guildmasters of the silk merchant's guild to make an exception. Or go to the black market and get what they want there. If they offer enough money around, they can get what they want.

(c) the tailor might be keeping this bolt of silk on display in his booth in order to attract future customers; he might therefore decide that he will become just another tailor of he gives up his one bolt of silk and becomes just like all the other tailors in town

Or, become the tailor who made a pile of money and bought himself another bolt of silk and had enough money left over from the transaction to buy two more.

So, the fact that there exists a silk market in the world does not automatically mean that the PCs can go out and buy themselves silk outfits.

If they offer enough money, they probably can.

The ability of characters to purchase magic items is conditioned by at least three factors:
(a) the existence of the item
(b) the availability of the item
(c) the values of the individual capable of obtaining the item for the characters

And? This makes it different from a market for any other commodity how?

Or better still, how about children? Children are much more abundant than silk. The fact that it is undeniably true that people are selling children in this world does not make it true that the purchase of children is an opportunity available to everyone.

I believe you are naive on this score. Of all the black market items one can get, children are probably one of the easiest to acquire.

 

[Storm Raven]

Right. So, show me where the cash value for the following are given in the D&D books so I know how much to charge my PCs for the following, as I custom fashion a new magic item:

The breath of a fish.
The sound of a cat stalking.
Moonlight reflected in Kheled-zaram.
Tears freely shed from a stone.
The thought of a god.

If such things can be acquired (and since they are somehow elements necessary to make magic items, they must be acquirable), one could hire someone to get it for them. The cost of the items would be "how much does it cost to hire someone to get it for me".

Not everyone's campaign is going to reflect the nature of the market you're presupposing must exist there--at least one that's based entirely on value that can be expressed in gold.

If it can be acquired, its value can be expressed in gold. This is a basic fact of life. Once you make something an item that can be owned or possessed, it has a value that can be expressed in gold. You may not like to deal with this basic and inalterable fact, but it can't be wished away. Certainly not by the sort of examples you've given here.

 

[Bregh]

I believe you are naive on this score. Of all the black market items one can get, children are probably one of the easiest to acquire.

Ah, and there goes any sense of logic this thread ever had.

Don't bother responding to any of my posts, as they won't have much relevance on the world you live on. Here, on my planet, at least, alcohol for minors, MP3 and DVD players, narcotics, firearms, and automobiles are far more readily availble on the "black market" than children.

 

[Belen]

What do you think "commissioning" a magic item is that makes it different from one person selling it and another buying it?

The difference is that the PCs have to ask for it. They have to go to someone qualified, then dicker with them in order to have it made. It will not already be made and the person who makes it will want something in return other than mere money. Money may be a component, but something else will have to happen.

In addition, this requires the entire party to perform the duty, so the rest of the PCs better be willing to put their lifes on the line in order for their friend to get the item he wants so badly.

Basically, it should be hard to get your optimal magical load out. I think that treating magic items as just another method of min/max or optimization is a load of bull. The right items can make a PC far above their normal CR and still leave them at normal wealth by level.

That is crap.

At the end of the game where everyone was able to get what they wanted (ie. they all had items that equalled, but did not exceed, their wealth by level), the PLAYERS asked to go back to the older way where magic items were actually worth something.

Thus, if you play in my game, you may find someone wands, potions, or scrolls for sale, but nothing else will appear in any type of store. It may exist in a treasure horde, or on the body of some dead adventurer, or something that they get from a slaine enemy, but they will not get a wish list and getting specific items will be hard.

 

[fusangite]

Storm Raven, all of your above statements are true if your merchant is a person who thinks like a modern capitalist, living alongside other individuals who share his beliefs and assumptions in a world governed by the laws of supply and demand. Fortunately, this type of world is not the only type of world in which all (or hopefully even most) D&D adventures take place. (Besides, how would the item creation rules even work in a world governed by the laws of supply and demand and therefore subject to inflation?)

And seriously, are you arguing that because there is a substantial black market in children Central Asia that I, sitting here in Central Canada, can go out and purchase a child today?