Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[haakon1]

The risk aspect of buying magic items has popped up a couple of times in this thread. I'm not saying that it would be impossible, but, how likely would the Thieves Guild or whatnot to piss of characters who evidently have earned 50k (or whatever large sum they're spending) in adventuring?

It's about the same as a shady used cars salesman tried to sell a lemon to person he knew to be Magneto / Superman. The thieves know that these are very tough hombres. Maybe there would be easy pickings elsewhere ..

Scene from Conan the Barbarian:

Trader: "Black lotus. Stygian. The best!"

Subtai (thief and archer): "It better not be hagga!"

Trader: "I would sell hagga to a slayer such as you?"

 

[haakon1]

Picasso's are bought and sold. Perhaps you have heard of places like Sotheby's and Christie's?

Interesting. Those places are in London & New York. Which also happen to have the biggest stock exchanges, the world capital (UN Building), etc. And of course, we're a world with with much better telecommunications than a typical D&D world, so that an oil sheik in Brunei can know about a 16th century Dutch painter and talk to the guy in London who can get it for him -- which makes it easier for the Londoner to make a living.

If we think more D&Dish economy -- let's think colonial America, would a colonial in Philly be able to get a Van Gogh? There MIGHT be an art gallery in colonial Philly, or perhaps a rich collector who deals on the side, but he is unlikely to have anything more than minor (cheap) artists, most likely locals, in stock. To get the Van Gogh, he needs to connect with Sotheby's back in London . . . if they even have it "in stock" (unlikely for an auction house), it will take months of shipping and guarding to get it to Philly.

Greyhawk analogy: Magic shops are a DM option for places like Greyhawk and Rel Astra. Places like Furyondy or Urnst or the Pale are likely too podunk for the really good stuff, but there might be somebody who deals in "local artists". In other words, buying +1 short swords or CLW potions, that's a DM option. Buying +5 holy avengers, again a DM option, but a bit silly without making it hard on the players and making them go to Greyhawk to buy it.

 

[Vigilance]

Of course, it's the DMs call. But I do think that players are entitled to whine or air their grievances with the game. If they're not enjoying their pastime, they're IMO free to express it, within limits of course. Just like with any other pastime. If I was doing anything else with my friends, I'd also be free to express how I feel about said pastime. If we were out on the beach and I got bored, or the beach was somehow cruddy, I'd say it.

Also I'm just giving an example that having items for sale doesn't necessarily take the wondrousness out of them.

Players are entitled to air their grievances. According to the original poster, they did that, he explained why he did things the way he did and why he felt no reason to change.

That's an airing of grievances. Ultimately its the DM's call. He is making a legitimate campaign decision. Everything in the book is his call.

When they continue to bring up the same point again and again... harping on it... that's whining, its immature... and its lame.

As for shops making items less "wondrous" I never made that claim, anymore than I have claimed that not allowing items to be bought and sold like any other commodity automatically makes them "wondrous".

What I am contending is that the GM has the right to alter the game mechanics to suit the style of campaign he wants to run. Almost all published settings do this that aren't aiming to run a Forgotten Realms style campaign, the type of campaign that 3E was designed for (in my humble opinion).

If the players cant be adult and accept that not everything in the game will suit their desires, in my opinion they have three adult choices: 1) run their own game 2) act like an adult and just play (I honestly cannot believe that the inability to buy magic items could harm your game experience to the point that you need to complain about more than once) 3) find another game that suits their tastes better.

Chuck

 

[Saeviomagy]

This is still a style consideration. My players may feel free to earn as much money as they want. If that is really the number for an orc's value, then that's just absurd. The designers would have to be on crack. (I'm not saying they weren't, just that it is the first reasonable explanation I could think of). Suffice to say that my orcs' large, ugly leather armor doesn't go for much, and neither does his shoddy short/long/great-sword (only 20/x2 and less hardness).

The lowly mage goes off and makes 100 scrolls of the various spells he knows, doubling his cash every time he sells them off. It takes him roughly 3 months to do the whole lot. That's how little the XP from the orc is really worth to him. At a guess, even nonadventurers can gain enough XP to balance out a full-time crafting job. So this talk about "XP is too valuable to ever sell" is rubbish.

If there is reasonably a buyer for something, then the players can sell it. But sometimes they can not. And if they enter a town with a wagon full of old equipment, the authorities are not likely to believe they are not merchants, and so should be taxed for importation of goods. They better be careful if they try to sell one of those items, cause they very well might get hit for evading taxes.

Why the hell do you think that PC's are expected to only get half the value of an item when they sell it? Are they getting screwed on every single deal? NO. They ARE paying taxes.

Stockpiles of magic items are exactly what draw other groups of adventurers. And there's no telling what level they are.

Since this is a stockpile of backup gear, probably lower level than the PC's that stowed it? Therefore unlikely to bust through and get the stuff before the adventuring party pops home... And if they're high level, then either they're stockpiling it themselves, OR they're selling it for cash.

I don't see how magic not being saleable removes any more plotlines than making magic buyable.

Did you read the post, or were you too busy hitting "submit reply" and carefully editing entries from dictionary.com to match your argument? Pretty much everything I responded to was "selling and buying is more difficult - to buy or sell magic you must perform plot hook X". The only plot hook you get from banning magic trade is "gee guys, we need some magic, lets go searching for the ancient gee-gaw of boredom".

 

[drothgery]

Interesting. Those places are in London & New York. Which also happen to have the biggest stock exchanges, the world capital (UN Building), etc. And of course, we're a world with with much better telecommunications than a typical D&D world, so that an oil sheik in Brunei can know about a 16th century Dutch painter and talk to the guy in London who can get it for him -- which makes it easier for the Londoner to make a living.

If we think more D&Dish economy -- let's think colonial America, would a colonial in Philly be able to get a Van Gogh? There MIGHT be an art gallery in colonial Philly, or perhaps a rich collector who deals on the side, but he is unlikely to have anything more than minor (cheap) artists, most likely locals, in stock. To get the Van Gogh, he needs to connect with Sotheby's back in London . . . if they even have it "in stock" (unlikely for an auction house), it will take months of shipping and guarding to get it to Philly.

It's been mentioned up-thread that major auction houses -- and stock exchanges, for that matter -- predate anything resembling modern communications by centuries. Moreover, in a D&D world magical communication and transportation is available.

 

[Vigilance]

The only plot hook you get from banning magic is "gee guys, we need some magic, lets go searching for the ancient gee-gaw of boredom".

Gee let's see... since I believe the state would realistically make the skills to make magic items and then use those items something taught as part of an indoctrination process to support the government (instead of overthrowing it)...

sort of like the way swordsmiths in ancient Japan were taught that their art of swordmaking was a Shinto religious rite which required them to be spotless in character and serve a higher power (the gods... from whom the Emperor and thus the state were descended)...

And then the users of those weapons, the Samurai... underwent a process that started at about age 6 that included how important it was to be a faultless servant and never disobey their superiors (the Daimyo... the guys in charge)...

I see the following plotline possibilities by banning sale of magic items:

1) PCs are assigned to hunt down a cult of rogue magicians selling magic items to the local thieves' guild in order to finance a planned coup against the local government

2) PCs are given a quest by the only authorities licensed to make magic weapons and armor (the local temple)... perhaps #1... in order to gain access to those services...

3) A collector of fine wares has kidnapped the most brilliant maker of magic weapons who has ever lived in order to create a copy of the famed sword that slew Emperor Lucius IV

4) After rescuing the swordsmith the PCs learn he has already completed his masterpiece... upon searching the house of the collector the PCs find the weapon has been stolen and now must hunt it down before it falls into the wrong hands...

Hmmm... and not a geegaw in sight.

Chuck

 

[Saeviomagy]

Gee let's see... since I believe the state would realistically make the skills to make magic items and then use those items something taught as part of an indoctrination process to support the government (instead of overthrowing it)...

sort of like the way swordsmiths in ancient Japan were taught that their art of swordmaking was a Shinto religious rite which required them to be spotless in character and serve a higher power (the gods... from whom the Emperor and thus the state were descended)...

And then the users of those weapons, the Samurai... underwent a process that started at about age 6 that included how important it was to be a faultless servant and never disobey their superiors (the Daimyo... the guys in charge)...

Hints: The ellipsis is to be used to signify something meaningful being left out, not wherever you might think to pause - use a full stop instead. "And" is not the beginning of a sentence. Capitalize. This part of your post was very difficult to read. The rest was a lot better.

I see the following plotline possibilities by banning sale of magic items:

1) PCs are assigned to hunt down a cult of rogue magicians selling magic items to the local thieves' guild in order to finance a planned coup against the local government

So sales of magic items are occurring. Just like I said - plotline spawned of magical item sales.

2) PCs are given a quest by the only authorities licensed to make magic weapons and armor (the local temple)... perhaps #1... in order to gain access to those services...

Ahhh, so the PC's are exchanging services for magical items. In other words they are (despite reanjr's incomplete dictionary quote) buying them. Another plot spawned via the trade of magic items.

3) A collector of fine wares has kidnapped the most brilliant maker of magic weapons who has ever lived in order to create a copy of the famed sword that slew Emperor Lucius IV

Ok, you've got one. And even then, the fact that the collector exists at all points to the existence of a trade of magic.

4) After rescuing the swordsmith the PCs learn he has already completed his masterpiece... upon searching the house of the collector the PCs find the weapon has been stolen and now must hunt it down before it falls into the wrong hands...

How will it fall into the wrong hands? Is someone going to SELL IT?

Hmmm... and not a geegaw in sight.

Nor a "magic items cannot be traded" policy in sight.

 

[Vigilance]

So sales of magic items are occurring. Just like I said - plotline spawned of magical item sales.

Stopping a black market in something is not the existence of trade.

Here's a quick snapshot of how wrong you're reading that sentence: if the PCs were assigned to break up a slavery ring, would that mean they were trafficking in slaves?

Ahhh, so the PC's are exchanging services for magical items. In other words they are (despite reanjr's incomplete dictionary quote) buying them. Another plot spawned via the trade of magic items.

If a quest to gain an item counts as buying it, then Elrond in LOTR was running a magic shop? Try again.

youu've got one. And even then, the fact that the collector exists at all points to the existence of a trade of magic.

A black market trade in magic. Which the PCs are trying to stop. Again, breaking up a slavery ring is not the same thing as the PCs being able to buy and sell slaves themselves.

How will it fall into the wrong hands? Is someone going to SELL IT?

See my earlier statements. A black market is commerce, but not the sort of commerce you are proposing, where the PCs go shopping for what they need.

Nor a "magic items cannot be traded" policy in sight.

And again I point out, if you consider a quest for an item "buying it" then King Arthur bought Excalibur from Merlin. In the words of Andre from the Princess Bride "I dont think that word means what you think it means".

Chuck

 

[The Shaman]

But it deviates from the default D&D world as expressed in the core rules and is therefore not as legitimately D&D as one that is.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I vaguely recall the subject of magic shops coming up in the 1e AD&D DMG and their use was discouraged - can someone fact-check that for me?

If that's correct, then legitimacy changes by edition.

Certainly that's true of prestige classes - the 3.0 text about making them campaign-specific with roleplaying requirements for entry was seriously watered down in 3.5, as the popularity of PrCs (and the demands for books containing them) soared.

If I'm understanding you correctly, Doug McCrae (and please forgive me if I'm not), that would mean a GM who places strict controls on PrC availability through roleplaying requirements isn't playing "legitimate D&D," either.

Personally I don't buy that argument - D&D has been described by its own rulebooks as something intended to be personalized for the twenty-five-plus years I've been playing the game.

I agree with the suggestion that D&D is its own genre at this point - after 30 years and tens of thousands (at least) pages of text, that should be expected. In my view that doesn't mean that it must be played strictly by those genre conventions, however.

As a general rule, magic is not the "technology" of my campaign-settings - it's not a commodity in the traditional sense, something to be bought and sold, because it carries costs that are difficult to repay. I've made house rules that make magic a more dangerous and unpredictable force in the cosmos. For example, magic item creation is much more difficult and demanding - forget losing XP, how 'bout a little permanent ability drain instead? Spell-casting acts like a flare to magically-attuned monsters - cast too many spells and you're likely to bring on some powerful baddies drawn to your "light." The whole purpose of this is to get away from the "genre conventions" regarding magic in D&D, to personalize my campaign and give magic its own flavor specific to the setting.

As far as I understand it, that's still D&D.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Stopping a black market in something is not the existence of trade.

Here's a quick snapshot of how wrong you're reading that sentence: if the PCs were assigned to break up a slavery ring, would that mean they were trafficking in slaves?

Are you thick? If the PC's are breaking up a slavery ring, then a slavery ring exists.

That means that trade in slaves exists. That means that IF the players wanted to, they could conceivably buy slaves.

If a quest to gain an item counts as buying it, then Elrond in LOTR was running a magic shop? Try again.

"I'll pay you five bucks to go down to the corner store and buy me a sandwich"

"I'll give you this powerful sword if you run down to the corner dungeon and quest for a sandwich"

Get it? You TRADE your services for a magical item.

From what I remember, Elrond handed over the sword without any necessary payment. I don't ever recall him saying "hey - if you go help frodo, I'll give you this shiny sword".

A black market trade in magic. Which the PCs are trying to stop. Again, breaking up a slavery ring is not the same thing as the PCs being able to buy and sell slaves themselves.

And if the trade did not exist, there would be nothing to break up. And if the trade DOES exist, the PC's CAN buy and sell slaves themselves.

See my earlier statements. A black market is commerce, but not the sort of commerce you are proposing, where the PCs go shopping for what they need.

So, what? Only people with a birthmark that says "I'm a member of the black market" can buy on the black market?

And again I point out, if you consider a quest for an item "buying it" then King Arthur bought Excalibur from Merlin. In the words of Andre from the Princess Bride "I dont think that word means what you think it means".
Chuck

It means "To get possession of by giving an equivalent, usually in money; to obtain by paying a price; to purchase."

From what I understand of the legend, Merlin didn't say "Go to the lake and chat up the lady for me, and when you come back, I'll give you this shiny sword", did he now?

Now, try a convincing argument.