Playing as both DM and a player

[Scotley]

This is a really interesting discussion. My group is largely made up of players in their late 30's, we are busy people and don't get to play as often as we would like and unfortunately, we have absenses fairly frequently. It should be noted that all the players in the group have spent time on both sides of the screen. It is not uncommon to only have three players at a session. Thus, we frequently make use of DMPC's to fill out the roles in party. Even with playing multiclassed characters there are often areas that don't get filled. The DMPC is usually generated last and tends to be good at things nobody else wanted. The DMPC is usually the last to get a choice of magic items. I typically run DMPC's with a degree of limitation. One of the first I ever ran was a dipsomanic druid (I loved all the neat info in the 1e DMG). When the party was going along fine he was usually busy drinking, but in an emergency he could rouse himself to act. Other times I have played DMPC's that were fearful and so sometimes frozen with terror and unable to act. I find that playing a younger than normal character is a good limitation. They let the older wiser party members make the decisions, but they also get bored quickly and may get into trouble if the rest of the party is stalled. The DMPC is usually a sub-optimal build. Often they take classes and make choices that limit their ability to steal the spotlight. I have often used Bards in the past, but under the latest rules these characters are often called upon to play the 'face' of the party which is an inappropriate role for the DMPC. Druids were once a favorite of mine for this role because their spell list and combat abilities tended to make them better in a support or second tier roll; however, the current generation has a good selection of flashy spells and with wildshape can be a serious combat powerhouse as well. The healer in Minatures handbook and the mariner from Dragonlance Age of Mortals are two classes I'm experiementing with now. Some DM's might find the NPC classes such as adept and warrior to be good choices.

I use DMPC's in a variety of roles. They can fill in ability gaps when the party lacks a healer or good utility spells. Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Warmages are all fun to play in combat, but they tend to leave the party without a lot of less flashy, but useful spells. An extra bit of help in combat can come in handy when the dice go against he players. Some skills, such as knowledge skills can be useful tools to give the players clues. The DMPC is an excellent way to insert some humor in the game or as someone else said remind the players of forgotten clues. A mature DM can play the DMPC without stealing the thunder of the other players. It is important to be sure the players realize that the DMPC is wrong sometimes. They are also usuful for drawing out quieter players. Sometimes having the DMPC show an interest in the character of a less vocal player can help bring them out of their shell. When the players are stalled the DMPC can help you get things moving again. It is also helpful to have the extra character in the group when an infrequent player shows up. When a player's character is out of action for some reason, they may wish to take over the DMPC for a while to have something to do while their character is unconcious, or otherwise seperated from the action. It will only work if you can seperate what you know from what the character knows and be humble enough not to want your character to be the center of attention.

It seems to me that most of the positive comments are coming from people with real experience using DMPC's while most of the naysayers haven't tried it or perhaps tried it with a less mature DM. I cannot run a true PC while I DM, I agree with that, but I can have a voice and tool in the party that helps me do my job as DM better. Perhaps half-npc or semi-PC is a better way to think of it. That being said, if the players ever complain about my use of DMPC's I would rethink it and either change the way I do it to address their concerns or stop altogether. It is a nice tool to have available, but it isn't absolutely required by any means.

 

[Insight]

Put me in the category of people who don't see a difference between NPCs and these so-called 'DMPCs'. Either the players or the DM controls any given character. There is no grey area here. Thus, either the character in question is a PC (Player Character, run by a Player), or an NPC (Non-Player Character). I don't understand why there's a problem with this simple fact.

Now, if you want to question how a DM runs his NPCs, that's one thing, or to question the role of an NPC in the game, that's fine. You could certainly point out that a DM would have certain partiality problems with running an NPC in the party long term, but I doubt that too many game sessions go by in my games where an NPC doesn't join the party for some period of time. These NPCs are not intended as long-term additions to the group, and are always within a level of the average party level either way, and I try to either fill a need within the group for an adventure where they might be lacking, or fill some story need for the short term.

Also, I should point out that in our group, we rotate DMs a lot, and the introduction of a NPC into the party is sometimes the outgoing DM's opportunity to introduce a new character they want to play in the upcoming adventure.

I'm going to echo what someone said earlier about trust. If you can't trust your DM to be impartial towards his or her own NPC in the party (or heck, any NPC in the game), that person should not be a DM. Or at the very least, if you are the only one having these feelings, you should find another game.

 

[fusangite]

Can someone clarify the terminology here?

How is a DMPC not an NPC? Sometimes NPCs adventure with a group for a while but that doesn't stop them being NPCs. What is the point of this new conceptual category here? Are DMPCs not NPCs? Are they a subset of NPCs? Is there any difference between how they function and how NPCs do?

 

[S'mon]

Well, S'mon, with two stories currently in print at pro-level markets and a job beginning on Monday as a writer for a video game company, I'm not feeling terribly frustrated at the moment.

Congratulations.

(Do writers for video game companies write the plots of games, the dialogue, that kind of thing? I guess techies don't do it themselves any more?)

 

[takyris]

Fusangite: Interesting question, and one which seems to be the bone of contention. After being called on some of my inaccuracies by SWRushing, I now feel that a DMPC is just a subset of an NPC. My definition, for the moment, anyway, is "An NPC that the PCs treat like another PC." That is to say, it's assumed that he'll be coming along on the adventures, he has a name and a background and is treated as an equal member of the party, and he's not automatically attached to one of the other PCs as a sidekick. If you read a story hour involving five main characters, it should be hard to figure out which one is the DMPC -- except possibly that if it's well done, the DMPC will be the one who gets the least glory and/or does the least representation of the group to other NPCs.

If done poorly, the DMPC looks like either Mary Sue or Gandalf, trotting around being better than everyone at everything and probably angsting about stuff the other PCs don't care about.

I don't think that anyone here is arguing that Mary Sue or Gandalf NPCs, who tag along, never get hurt, outdo the party, and shove the group toward the plot whenever creativity looms, are good things. I think the main argument is over the real definition, since some people define a DMPC as being inherently Mary-Sue-ish, and if you make a case for a not Mary-Sue-ish DMPC, they classify that as an NPC.

 

[S'mon]

Although you're right -- I did give my DMPC special treatment, now that I think about it. I treated her specially by not taking time for any solo missions with her, not making magical items tailored specifically to her character as I did with all the other PCs, and not spending as much time looking for rules loopholes to keep her alive as I did for the other PCs when a freak critical hit took her down. Yeah, I abused the heck out of that wall of information. My bad.

The fact that you'd even be considering any of this - looking for loopholes to keep 'your' PC alive! - never mind boasting about it, speaks volumes about the difference between a regular tagalong-NPC and a "DM's PC", in the mind of the DM and thus in the perception of the players.

edit: From your following posts it looks like I may have misinterpreted your position, if so sorry.

 

[S'mon]

Can someone clarify the terminology here?

How is a DMPC not an NPC? Sometimes NPCs adventure with a group for a while but that doesn't stop them being NPCs. What is the point of this new conceptual category here? Are DMPCs not NPCs? Are they a subset of NPCs? Is there any difference between how they function and how NPCs do?

I agree that there seems to be a lot of blurring of definitions here. What Scotley is describing seems to be clearly a regular tagalong NPC that is uncontroversial. It starts to get very iffy when the GM is talking about the tagalong NPC "my PC" and identifying with that character and their success or failure. Typically the GM claims to be playing by the rules so the GM-PC is treated exactly as another party member, but of course D&D is a Gamist system and the GM is playing the game 'against' himself. In extreme cases you get
the Mary Sue GM-PC who is more powerful - higher level, better stats, more magic - than the _real_ PCs, effectively dominates the game and when the (weeping in frustration) PCs attack him, turns out to have dice-immunity so he kills - or more likely captures & humilates - the real PCs & returns them to the railroad.

 

[takyris]

Congratulations.

Thanks. And apologies for defensiveness. I've got a three month old baby, a just-moved-into house that's not unpacked yet, and I just found out in the last 24 hours that a) my cell phone is going to keep charging me international roaming rates even though I upgraded to the "Canada is local, too" plan, b) my car's warranty won't be honored in Canada due to red tape on the U.S. end, and c) my wife's petition to work from home remotely, which got through legal and HR just fine at her tech company, was personally shot down by the new VP, who is against people working remotely -- meaning that since we're already in Canada, my wife is either getting laid off or quitting, depending on the semantics. Add in a sinus infection and a lack of clarity over how Canada's medical system works with my U.S. medical insurance, and I probably shouldn't be posting at all.

(Do writers for video game companies write the plots of games, the dialogue, that kind of thing? I guess techies don't do it themselves any more?)

It depends on the company. Bioware hires creative writers for the plots and dialogue, since their main value point is in the depth of their stories -- and under the "I can hammer in the nail with a wrench, but the hammer works better" theory, having a writing team AND a design team working on the game makes it more likely to be stronger on both fronts, with the writers taking advice from the technical designers on incorporating technical features into the stories and the technical guys trying to make most of the game work in a way that complements the storyline the writing team wants. I believe that a few other companies do as well, like Obsidian (who did the just-released Knights of the Old Republic II game). If I had to guess, I'd say that it's primarily in the roleplaying industry, though. The writing team for Deer Hunter was probably not hired specifically for its creative skills.

But that's all based on what I've heard in interviews. I have no actual information until Monday...

 

[S'mon]

Taky - so, you're joining the guys responsible for Neverwinter Nights, eh? Well I guess the dialogue there was at least as good as a typical FR novel, under your stewardship I'm sure it can only get better!

Back on topic, your definition of a GM-PC as "an NPC who the players treat as a PC" is very helpful, thanks. I do think it's vital that the GM never refer to such characters as "their PC" or intimate that the players _must_ play nice with this NPC (whereas it's ok for GM to encourage players not to disrespect other player's PCs) - if players treat that NPC well, it should be because they like and respect that character, not from fear of the GM's wrath.

 

[takyris]

I agree that there seems to be a lot of blurring of definitions here. What Scotley is describing seems to be clearly a regular tagalong NPC that is uncontroversial. It starts to get very iffy when the GM is talking about the tagalong NPC "my PC" and identifying with that character and their success or failure.

This might be an important point. And likely, it is a point where a DMPC is different from a PC. My favorite DMPC, the one who tagged along for two years with the group, had a Dex of 9. I played it for laughs, having her trip at humorous moments and such. I even purposely fudged her Reflex saves so that she never made one, even though a Dex of 9 isn't all that huge a penalty.

As a player with a PC, I doubt I'd have been willing to go that far. So while a story hour might have made this NPC look pretty PC-like (yeah, she had her drama, but she was about fourth in line in terms of amout of character drama going on at any given time), from a purely mechanical perspective, it's unlikely that she would have worked as a PC, since players don't usually have the luxury of choosing to let their characters fail things.

(And I casually let people know in one-on-one notes that the clumsy paladin looked embarrassed and angry about her clumsiness, especially given her half-elven nature, and that she was actually really defensive about it. Eventually, when her church scapegoated her for something that wasn't her fault, she had a crisis of faith, and a wizard with a Belt of Agility +6 was able to tempt her into falling from paladinhood, which was when she left the party. That was actually a good roleplaying night, watching the PCs react to seeing their friend fall from grace and, in effect, head on over to the dark side.)