[Playtest 2] HP thresholds

[Yora]

No, it always says "maximum hit point". How much the target is wounded does not affect the results.

You automatically pass the saving throw if your ability is 5 more than the save DC.
or:
You only get a saving throw if your ability is 5 more than the save DC.

I think that would slow things down, rather than speed them up.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I think that would slow things down, rather than speed them up.

I more or less agree there.
However since DC does not increase with spell level, I'm struggling to find a way for higher level spells to affect more powerful creatures without calculation.
Maybe a flat comparison of the spell level against the target's level? This might require (sensibly) relabelling spell levels as 1,3,5 etc.

 

[Ellington]

I more or less agree there.
However since DC does not increase with spell level, I'm struggling to find a way for higher level spells to affect more powerful creatures without calculation.
Maybe a flat comparison of the spell level against the target's level? This might require (sensibly) relabelling spell levels as 1,3,5 etc.

Base it off the creature's level compared to yours. Creatures have levels now, so there's no reason it shouldn't work.

"Creatures one or more levels below you do not get a saving throw." Something along those lines.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Base it off the creature's level compared to yours. Creatures have levels now, so there's no reason it shouldn't work.

"Creatures one or more levels below you do not get a saving throw." Something along those lines.

Ah but we want higher-level spells to be more useful than lower-level spells. I suppose you could use the minimum level at which you can cast a given spell level.

 

[Gadget]

Forgive, I don't have the latest play test packet (no group, currently).

I was under the impression that the new HP Threshold was so that save or suck spells did not become insta-win / useless for key fights. I believe targets above the threshold still get a save, do they not?

So you can still cast a spell with a HP Threshold at a target that is above the Threshold and they could still fail their save, is this correct?

I was also under the impression that you could prepare a spell in a higher level slot to have a greater effect, i.e. "If you want a 7d8 damage fireball, prepare it in a higher level slot" quote. Could this not also be done with HP Threshold spells? Prepare it in a Higher level slot and the Threshold goes up?

I understand that save DC does not go up with the spell level in the play test packet? It seems that this would make preparing something in a higher level slot an unattractive option, unless the bounded accuracy thing is really strictly enforced. Is this true?

 

[RigaMortus2]

They could expand upon this HP Threshold thingy, and borrow terms like bloodied from 4e, but make other HP ranges and spells do different things at each range. For example:

PC's Current Damage Threshold:

Unharmed (100% health)
Light (75% - 99% health)
Moderate (50% - 74% health)
Serious (25% - 49% health)
Critical (below 25% health)

Then, certain spells can do certain things at each HP Threshold.

 

[Li Shenron]

It encourages metagaming

"Hey, why don't you use suggestion against that minotaur?"
"Nah, man. Minotaurs have 52 HP. It won't work."

This is probably my biggest beef with the thresholds.

I usually roll (or fiat) monsters HP, so metagaming like that in my campaigns would be risky.

My one and only concern with this currently, is that there are still a few spells (not many) which become useless at high levels.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

They could expand upon this HP Threshold thingy, and borrow terms like bloodied from 4e, but make other HP ranges and spells do different things at each range. For example:

PC's Current Damage Threshold:

Unharmed (100% health)
Light (75% - 99% health)
Moderate (50% - 74% health)
Serious (25% - 49% health)
Critical (below 25% health)

Then, certain spells can do certain things at each HP Threshold.

I like this idea. Basically, have certain injury levels for creatures,and a creature at that injury level will be affected.

I think one of the problems with the idea is that WotC probably wants some of these abilities to be particularly effective against mooks that have less total hit points and those are supposed to be affected by spells regardless of how injured they already are - they are by definition so weak that it's the spellcasters job to finish them off, basically, showing the power of magic, without wrecking more dangerous foes with these spells.

In that case, I'd still prefer using a creature's current total hit points as threshold, rather than its maximum. I like the idea of whittling down enemies to make them more suspectible to effects.

 

[Ainamacar]

I like this idea. Basically, have certain injury levels for creatures,and a creature at that injury level will be affected.

I think one of the problems with the idea is that WotC probably wants some of these abilities to be particularly effective against mooks that have less total hit points and those are supposed to be affected by spells regardless of how injured they already are - they are by definition so weak that it's the spellcasters job to finish them off, basically, showing the power of magic, without wrecking more dangerous foes with these spells.

In that case, I'd still prefer using a creature's current total hit points as threshold, rather than its maximum. I like the idea of whittling down enemies to make them more suspectible to effects.

In one of the old L&L article threads I think similar ideas were being bandied about. Thresholds based on current hit points and maximum hit points both have counterintuitive cases and metagaming issues. Personally, I think there is something to be said for rolling "damage" (basically setting the threshold on the fly) for non-damaging spells to reduce both problems. And honestly, I found all the fixed hit point/hit dice mechanics to determine spell effects in earlier editions to just be inelegant.

Suppose "Suggestion" worked as follows:
If the target has fewer than 6d6 current hit points, charmed for 1 minute (save negates) otherwise charmed for 1 round (save negates). This version functions both on beat-down powerful creatures as well as weaker creatures with full health. Since the "threshold" is variable it is a little tougher to metagame, especially after the fight has been going for a while. One could combine this with other levels of health (as in the post you liked) for specific spells as well, of course. In simple cases it might not even set up a different effect, just specify that the save is made at a penalty (or even that no save occurs). For abilities where a damaging spell of the same level with similar targeting characteristics would knock a creature below 0 hit points this is perfectly reasonable.

The downside, of course, is that there is rolling to be done, so play isn't quite as speedy, and even with rolling the variance in the threshold isn't necessarily very large, just a couple levels worth of hp in either direction. To keep the slow-down to a minimum I'd probably keep the number of dice rolled constant with spell level, and add in a minimum fixed amount. For example, a 6th level analog of Suggestion might specify 40+6d6 hit points. That would mean a typical unhurt 13th or 14th level monster would be the average creature to feel the full effect, but with the roll that might actually range from 10th to 17th level monster. And a 20th level monster that is down to half hit points would almost certainly be susceptible, but would "likely" be susceptible earlier.

And if there are spells where using maximum hit points certainly makes the most sense then it may also be set the same way. The fuzziness will againt mitigate some of the metagaming problems.

 

[Li Shenron]

In that case, I'd still prefer using a creature's current total hit points as threshold, rather than its maximum. I like the idea of whittling down enemies to make them more suspectible to effects.

I am very undecided on this... I think using current HP would make for a very interesting game, but the 'feel' could be too different from typical D&D. Perhaps trying this out as a HR someday, and see what happens...