[Playtest 2] Wizard and Rogue HD

[Crazy Jerome]

In Basic, the d4 isn't that big of a deal. You've got only three steps from the d4 to d8, where the fighter maxes out. Plus, the Con bonuses are smaller and harder to come by. So as far as hit points are concerned, there is the default of d6, and then slightly weaker or stronger than that. That can work very well in a system built on a d6 damage basis. (And makes perfect sense when everyone had a ton of d6s, but had to shell out for other die sizes.)

The problem with the d4 (and how Arcana Evolved identifies it) is the existence of the d10 and d12 hit die, plus higher, readily accessible Con mods. This creates a possible range in damages that makes it tough to handle the full range of outcomes.

Me, I'd make the standard the d8. Then wizard types are d6, warrior types are d10. The d4 and d12 are reserved specifically for adjustments, like the dwarven damage die with particular weapons. Most adventuring wizards are d6. Most adventuring clerics are d8. But if you then decide to pick a background or specialty or other special thing that trades health for power, you drop down a die. You balance damage around the d8 expectation. If a wizard, already "weak" at d6 decides to go full bore elderly mage, then he knows what he risking with that d4.

 

[Transformer]

Can we please get a happy medium on first level hit points? First we get unkillable punching bag wizards. Now there's already a million page thread over on the Wizards forums proclaiming that the designers hate the baby Jesus because they jumped to the other extreme and made wizards housecat-fodder again.

How friggin' hard is it to just put it somewhere in the middle there? 5 + Max Hit Die + Con Mod? Half Con Score + Max Hit Die? Both would give a 12 Con Wizard 10 starting hp, and a 12 Con Fighter 16 starting hp.

Luckily, it seems possible that Wizards is planning to do just that, and is going to the extremes just to test the waters.

 

[deleteaccount]

I think the survivor specialty is just for that. You get +5 hit points in the beginning and +1 hit dice on the first level.

Personally I don't mind the wizards having low hp.

For those who want third level heroes in the beginning wotc could add an optional rule.
Maybe Max HD + half Con score?

 

[pemerton]

If in Pathfinder a 5th level wizard with Con 12 has 5d6+5 hp, and the regular 5th level troll does 2 attacks of 1d6+5 claws +1d6+7 rend and 1d8+5 bite, the wizard is in a much higher danger than in a system where the 5th level wizard has 5d4+5 and the elite 6th level Troll does 2 x 1d6+2 claws attacks and 1x 1d8+4 bite and a regular 5th level encounter (the Orog) does 1d12+3.

Ave hp (PF): 22.5. Ave troll damage (PF): 17 + 9.5 +rend = 26.5 + rend. I assume rend happens when both claws hit? Let's call that another 7 hp to our damage total, then, for 33.5.

Ave hp (next): 17.5. Ave troll damage (next): 19.5.

I wouldn't back the wizard against either troll once melee starts!

The orog, on the other hand, is ave damage of 9.5. The wizard certainly has a reasonable chance at surving that.

 

[triqui]

Ave hp (PF): 22.5. Ave troll damage (PF): 17 + 9.5 +rend = 26.5 + rend. I assume rend happens when both claws hit? Let's call that another 7 hp to our damage total, then, for 33.5.

Ave hp (next): 17.5. Ave troll damage (next): 19.5.

I wouldn't back the wizard against either troll once melee starts!

The orog, on the other hand, is ave damage of 9.5. The wizard certainly has a reasonable chance at surving that.

True, but two things should be noted: In 5e, a Troll is a 6th level Elite. Adding an extra level to the wizard put him slightly above the troll average damage. In Pathfinder, it's a CR 5. And that said, the Average troll damage is just 10% above the Wizard hitpoints, so a slightly below average roll makes you to survive, while the PF one does 26% more damage than the Wizard HP.

Yes, Rend happens when both claws hit. With a regular 5th level wizard having an average of AC 15 or so, and the troll having +8 to hit

 

[ppaladin123]

I just want them to strip the hit point thresholds from the spells and turn them into hit die thresholds. Right now a level 2 or 3 fighter passes the auto-charm threshold of the Charm spell and gets a saving throw. A wizard doesn't do this until around level 6. It seems kind of odd that a higher level wizard is worse at shaking off a magical attack than a lower level fighter.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Personally I don't mind the wizards having low hp.

Low is OK ... but when your 1st level 4 hp wizard gets hit by a 1st level radiant lance (3d8 damage) spell, you're frakked.

 

[triqui]

I just want them to strip the hit point thresholds from the spells and turn them into hit die thresholds. Right now a level 2 or 3 fighter passes the auto-charm threshold of the Charm spell and gets a saving throw. A wizard doesn't do this until around level 6. It seems kind of odd that a higher level wizard is worse at shaking off a magical attack than a lower level fighter.

I agree with this.

Actually, the best way to do it would be having "mental hit points" that work as a threshold, so fighters are easier to charm than wizards. But it's not probably worth the effort, hit dice is good enough.

 

[tlantl]

I believe that the devs need to spend much more time with the spells and the way they affect creatures. Using hit point thresholds seems like a decent idea until you take into consideration that creatures with varying HD are going to throw a wrench into the gears so to speak.

Using level or hit dice is more reasonable since the wide variety of actual hit points derived from each die size causes major problems such as a low level fighter being immune to certain effects while still affecting higher level rogues and wizards.

I actually hate using average hit points for players and monsters. I'll roll for each and every creature encountered. Some will be easy to kill others not so much. To me that is as much a part of D&D as armor class and levels. I like the randomness of it all.

When the player's characters are weak and vulnerable they tend to work together more. When a party survives and grows stronger together they form a more cohesive bond. Many of the problems associated with being the center of the action go away since it takes everyone working together to reach their goals.

Give everyone a mountain of hit points and a steady stream of I win buttons and they are just four or five individuals competing for the spotlight, none of them really needs the others for much of anything. To me that is definitely not D&D.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Whether you use hit points, hit dice, or neither is a matter of intent.

For spells like sleep, where the intent is to be able to beat a creature down and then hit them with the spell, hit points are perfect.

But I remember the complaints during the first playtest that charm spells working that way were a problem, because it would lead to beating on NPCs in order to charm them. Here, the threshold is meant to make the spell less effective against more powerful creatures. Here, hit dice or level is probably more appropriate, but I wonder if it's best to drop the threshold entirely.