D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Spells

[Chaosmancer]

Elden Ring is the best example of spell schools in contemporary fantasy imo

I haven't had a chance to play it, what do they do with them?

 

[Charlaquin]

I haven't had a chance to play it, what do they do with them?

If you’ve played any of the Dark Souls games, it works basically the same way. There are “spells” which (usually) key off Intellect and “incantations” which (usually) key off Faith, which is roughly analogous to D&D’s Arcane/Divine split. There are also some spells and incantations that break the general trend of spells using Int and incantations using Faith - a few Incantations use both, and a few spells use another stat called Arcane. Those spells would be kind of like Pathdinder’s Occult spells.

Additionally, there are a lot of different symbols that appear when you cast a spell or incantation, which I assume are what @Shardstone is alluding to with the comparison to schools of magic. The thing is, the relationship between the symbols is only correlated with the effects of the spell or incantation, but it’s not 1:1 - most fire spells use the same symbol, but not all, for example. The reason for that is because the symbols are actually determined by the origin of the spell or incantation, not its effects. All spells created by the glintstone sorcerers of Raya Lucaria would use the same symbol, all Incantations created by the Golden Order Fundamentalists use the same symbol, etc. This ends up correlating roughly to the effects because there tend to be common themes among the spells created by a given order of sorcerers or priests, but there’s also a bit of variety within their effects.

Also none of this is ever spelled out directly. In typical Miyazaki fashion, the lore is all scattered across various item descriptions and visual design details, which lore buffs piece together to try to assemble the best picture they can of what they think all the various hints imply. Which I mention mostly to cover my butt in case my understanding of what the symbols are supposed to indicate is off in some way. Soulsborne lore analysis is an inexact alchemy (part art, part science, part mysticism).

 

[Maxperson]

It is a fair question that if wizard subclasses stop using spell schools (which miiiight happen).... is there really any point to schools anymore?

Yes there is a point to schools. Magic is similar to science. We don't just say that a scientist just does science. They do physics, astronomy, chemistry, biology, etc. Wizards don't just do magic. They do necromancy, evocation, enchantment, etc.

The schools allow for differentiation between spells that fall into those categories as well as allow for specializations(subclasses in 5e)

 

[Stalker0]

Yes there is a point to schools. Magic is similar to science. We don't just say that a scientist just does science. They do physics, astronomy, chemistry, biology, etc. Wizards don't just do magic. They do necromancy, evocation, enchantment, etc.

The schools allow for differentiation between spells that fall into those categories as well as allow for specializations(subclasses in 5e)

well sure, but I don't current have "History, specificized in the punic wars. History, specialized in modern French history". etc.

Dnd already generalized many many things that in real life would be more specialized. So its the same question with magic.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If you’ve played any of the Dark Souls games, it works basically the same way. There are “spells” which (usually) key off Intellect and “incantations” which (usually) key off Faith, which is roughly analogous to D&D’s Arcane/Divine split. There are also some spells and incantations that break the general trend of spells using Int and incantations using Faith - a few Incantations use both, and a few spells use another stat called Arcane. Those spells would be kind of like Pathdinder’s Occult spells.

Additionally, there are a lot of different symbols that appear when you cast a spell or incantation, which I assume are what @Shardstone is alluding to with the comparison to schools of magic. The thing is, the relationship between the symbols is only correlated with the effects of the spell or incantation, but it’s not 1:1 - most fire spells use the same symbol, but not all, for example. The reason for that is because the symbols are actually determined by the origin of the spell or incantation, not its effects. All spells created by the glintstone sorcerers of Raya Lucaria would use the same symbol, all Incantations created by the Golden Order Fundamentalists use the same symbol, etc. This ends up correlating roughly to the effects because there tend to be common themes among the spells created by a given order of sorcerers or priests, but there’s also a bit of variety within their effects.

Also none of this is ever spelled out directly. In typical Miyazaki fashion, the lore is all scattered across various item descriptions and visual design details, which lore buffs piece together to try to assemble the best picture they can of what they think all the various hints imply. Which I mention mostly to cover my butt in case my understanding of what the symbols are supposed to indicate is off in some way. Soulsborne lore analysis is an inexact alchemy (part art, part science, part mysticism).

That... that sounds like a whole lot of nothing. I hope there is more to it than that.

 

[Charlaquin]

That... that sounds like a whole lot of nothing. I hope there is more to it than that.

I mean, I gave you the cliff notes version. There certainly is a lot more depth to the lore of spells and incantations in the setting, but again, interpreting said lore from the snippets across item descriptions and environmental design cues is a pretty involved task. What I described is what an average player might pick up on in a casual playthrough. But yeah, there’s a lot more there for folks who really want to deep dive on the lore. I’m sure you could find multiple hour plus videos on YouTube analyzing the different groupings of spells if you wanted to do such a thing. That’s a big part of the Soulsborne games’ identity; they don’t really do traditional narrative stories, they do intricate worldlore that you have to actively hunt down and piece together. Or don’t, and just enjoy the general atmosphere and challenging gameplay.

 

[Maxperson]

well sure, but I don't current have "History, specificized in the punic wars. History, specialized in modern French history". etc.

Dnd already generalized many many things that in real life would be more specialized. So its the same question with magic.

History and science are not equivalent things. Science is categorized for a reason and magic is like science. Like science, magic follows rules and can be explored by those who learn it in order to come up with new ways to use it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

History and science are not equivalent things. Science is categorized for a reason and magic is like science. Like science, magic follows rules and can be explored by those who learn it in order to come up with new ways to use it.

Right, so what are the exact demarcations between Biology, Bio-Chemistry, Endocrinology and Chemistry? Let's not pretend that science has these bright, clear distinctions between different disciplines.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, so what are the exact demarcations between Biology, Bio-Chemistry, Endocrinology and Chemistry? Let's not pretend that science has these bright, clear distinctions between different disciplines.

Clear enough. Just like...................magic!! Chemistry has subcategories, just like enchantment does. Enchament represents mind influencing, mind attacking and item enhancement. They don't make all the subcategories into schools, though. They just go with chemistry, I mean enchantment.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Clear enough.

So clear you completely ignored the question and just went along as though you answered it.

Just like...................magic!! Chemistry has subcategories, just like enchantment does. Enchament represents mind influencing, mind attacking and item enhancement. They don't make all the subcategories into schools, though. They just go with chemistry, I mean enchantment.

Enchantment has nothing to do with item enhancement. Any spell that does that is generally transmutation, evocation, or abjuration.