D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Spells

[Chaosmancer]

My original statement was meant to be playful lol

It was not taken that way. Tone and Nuance is hard to convey via text alone.

 

[Shardstone]

Some people cant see the vision after all...

 

[Yaarel]

@Chaosmancer

The Spelljammer Guide is in the quote boxes.

"The Astral Plane is, quite literally, the plane of stars."

"Astral" literally means starry, or "of stars". But the Astral Plane includes both the Astral Sea and the Wildspaces. The Astral Sea lacks stars. The Wildspaces overlap the stars that are in the Material Plane. It is more accurate to say, the Material Plane is the "plane of stars". The Astral Plane overlaps the Material Plane at places where there are stars and comparable stellar systems.

"More precisely, it is where the stars and portals to the heavens reside − an infinitely vast celestial void that surrounds all the worlds of the Material Plane."

The Astral Plane is "where the stars reside". The Astral Plane appears to have its only virtual copy of stars and star systems. So while these stars are in the Material Plane, the Astral overlays it with its own virtual information construct version that coheres to the Material information patterns. It can be said, while the stars are in the Material Plane, they are also, in a sense, in the Astral Plane. The information constructs are made out of the stuff of thought and dream. The information forms a virtual overlay of the matter. The Astral Wildspace is a virtual star system.

The Astral Plane is "where the portal to the heavens reside". This appears to refer to the Astral Sea. Via the Astral Sea, the creatures of one star system are actually able to reach an other star system. Otherwise, in the Material Plane, the stars are impossibly far away. The Astral Sea lacks the space of the Material Plane. Distance has little meaning in the Astral Sea, and one travels as one would in a dream. Thus it is possible to reach those distant galaxies, via the Astral Sea to the reachable Wildspaces that overlap them.

"Every D&D world − whether round, flat, or some other shape − exists in an airless void known as Wildspace. A world might be solitary, or it might have neighbors: one or more suns, worlds, moons, asteroids, comets, or other bodies. This neighborhood of celestial and planetary bodies is called a Wildspace system."

A star system in the Material Plane can include various phenomena, suns, blackholes, planets, star dust, whatever. A Wildspace can overlap any of these.

The Wildspace is − mostly − and airless void (as is the star system in the Material Plane). But the Wildspace includes the star itself which isnt an airy void. The Wildspace also includes "asteroids", "comets", and other space phenomena. Indeed, the Wildspace includes each "world" itself. The planet is part of the Wildspace virtual reality. It is indeed possible to visit the surface of the planet while in Wildspace. One can visit the Underdark deep within the planet, while in the Wildspace.

Indeed everything that exists can be accessed via the Astral Plane.

"In Wildspace, the Material Plane and the Astral Plane overlap. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and are effectively on both of those planes at once. If you were to leave your home world and continue outward until you neared the edge of your Wildspace system, you would begin to see a faint, silvery haze. By traveling into this haze, you pass from Wildspace into the Astral Sea, more colorfully known as the Silver Void. The deeper into the Astral Sea you travel, the thicker and brighter the haze becomes, but the stars that shine through it are always visible. Wildspace and the Astral Sea together comprise the Astral Plane."

The "Wildspace" means, exactly, where the Astral Plane overlaps the Material Plane. Anywhere can be accessed by the Astral Plane. But here in a Wildspace, the Astral Plane itself coheres to the properties and behaviors of matter. Virtually, via Astral thought that behaves as if matter.

Specifically, there is a virtual copy of the star system that "resides" in the Astral Plane. This part of the Astral Plane is virtually matter. The information constructs in the Wildspace behave like matter does. Astral creatures who enter a Wildspace from the Astral Sea can age there the same way Material creatures age.

Curiously, the Astral Sea itself cannot be seen by those who are in the Wildspace. One can only see the "silvery haze" of the Astral Sea as one is exiting the Wildspace. There in the Astral Sea, the Astral Plane no longer coheres to the informational influence of the Material Plane. One is free from Material constraints, and immortal.

"The Astral Sea, like Wildspace, is a void; however, it is not an airless one. Here, you can breathe normally and exist indefinitely, never aging and never needing food or drink. You can propel yourself through the Astral Sea with the power of your mind alone, though many astral voyagers wisely travel in well-armed ships, for this place is the home of a host of fearsome creatures. Here travelers might find the petrified hulks of dead gods and swirling pools of color that serve as portals to other planes of existence. (For more information about color pools, see the Dungeon Master's Guide.)"

One can breathe in the Astral Sea virtually. There is virtual air there, the stuff of thought and dream, rather than of gaseous matter. "Souls" can breathe if they want to. Souls dont "need" food or drink, but they can enjoy them harmlessly for pleasure. They dont need air, but can take breaths harmlessly. Souls exist "indefinitely". People can breathe in dreams. There is no aging. Astral creatures are immortal. These dream constructs of the Astral Sea are eternal beings.

"Much in the way that oars and strong winds enable travel by sea on terrestrial worlds, magic items called spelljamming helms are used to propel and steer ships through Wildspace and the Astral Sea. A spelljamming helm customarily takes the form of an ornate chair in which the ship's pilot sits. To attune to a spelljamming helm, one must be a spellcaster. The pilot of a spelljamming ship is called a spelljammer."

A spelljammer is a "magic item". The ship itself and its helm that steers it have magical powers. This magic item has planeshifting capability. A spelljammer can shift out of the mode of existence of the matter of the Material Plane and into the mode of existence of the thought of the Astral Plane, and navigate both its Astral Sea and its Wildspaces.

 

[Chaosmancer]

@Chaosmancer

The Spelljammer Guide is in the quote boxes.

I also quoted the book.

"Astral" literally means starry, or "of stars". But the Astral Plane includes both the Astral Sea and the Wildspaces. The Astral Sea lacks stars.

Reference needed. Where does it state that the Astral Sea lacks stars?

The Wildspaces overlap the stars that are in the Material Plane. It is more accurate to say, the Material Plane is the "plane of stars". The Astral Plane overlaps the Material Plane at places where there are stars and comparable stellar systems.

This does not match the description given in the Astral Guide.

The Astral Plane is "where the stars reside". The Astral Plane appears to have its only virtual copy of stars and star systems. So while these stars are in the Material Plane, the Astral overlays it with its own virtual information construct version that coheres to the Material information patterns. It can be said, while the stars are in the Material Plane, they are also, in a sense, in the Astral Plane. The information constructs are made out of the stuff of thought and dream. The information forms a virtual overlay of the matter. The Astral Wildspace is a virtual star system.

None of this is in the book. This is solely your interpretation.

The Astral Plane is "where the portal to the heavens reside". This appears to refer to the Astral Sea. Via the Astral Sea, the creatures of one star system are actually able to reach an other star system. Otherwise, in the Material Plane, the stars are impossibly far away. The Astral Sea lacks the space of the Material Plane. Distance has little meaning in the Astral Sea, and one travels as one would in a dream. Thus it is possible to reach those distant galaxies, via the Astral Sea to the reachable Wildspaces that overlap them.

Except when you leave a galaxy, the Wildspace to be more specific, you enter the Astral Sea. There is no distance between the two Wildspace zones that does not include the Astral Sea. And nothing at all states that distance has little meaning in the Astral Sea.

You are again enforcing your view on the text, not relying on the test itself.

A star system in the Material Plane can include various phenomena, suns, blackholes, planets, star dust, whatever. A Wildspace can overlap any of these.

The Wildspace is − mostly − and airless void (as is the star system in the Material Plane). But the Wildspace includes the star itself which isnt an airy void. The Wildspace also includes "asteroids", "comets", and other space phenomena. Indeed, the Wildspace includes each "world" itself. The planet is part of the Wildspace virtual reality. It is indeed possible to visit the surface of the planet while in Wildspace. One can visit the Underdark deep within the planet, while in the Wildspace.

Indeed everything that exists can be accessed via the Astral Plane.

Okay, I usually try to be polite because things can be interpreted many different ways. But this is just idiotic.

Yes, the things inside the airless pocket exist inside the airless pocket. Which can include things like air. Note: Reality, where we exist in an airless void known as space, which includes things that are not an airless void like the planet Jupiter, the planet mars, The Sun also known as Sol, and the planet Earth. So, while technically you are currently in space, we would generally say that, since you are on the planet Earth, you are not in space.

And, yet again, this "virtual reality" terminology and view-point is entirely made-up by you. It doesn't even apply to the Astral Plane, because if you are on the Astral Plane you can't look around and see the Material Plane. You are just twisting the cosmology presented until it snaps and forms the shape you want.

Edit: To try and make this less confrontational, let me ask you this. If you are correct, why is it impossible to fly a spelljammer through a planet? To quote the text, when speaking about the speed of a spelljammer, "A spelljamming ship automatically slows to its flying speed (discussed later in this chapter) when it comes within 1 mile of something weighing 1 ton or more, such as another ship, a kindori (see Boo's Astral Menagerie), an asteroid, or a planet." Additionally, when speaking about the air envelops: "The air envelope around a habitable planet or moon is called an atmosphere. An atmosphere is a special kind of air envelope that replenishes itself constantly. A creature or an object can refresh its air envelope by entering the atmosphere of a planet or moon" and finally when speaking about Gravity: "For an object the size of a planet or moon, gravity pulls everything toward the center of the body, meaning that creatures can stand upright anywhere on the surface, and dropped objects fall perpendicular to the surface they land on." which is DOES NOT allow for the Gravity Plane that is found on Spelljammers and other smaller objects. In fact, no mention of passing a gravity plane when dealing with a planet exists.

If, while in wildspace, you were not material, why would you need to breath? Why could you interact with the atmosphere? Why does the planet's gravity matter, and if you could fall through the planet as an immaterial ghost, why does nothing state that, or mention anything about floating in the core of the planet?

This is all because Wildspace if physical. It is just space. Normal space. they just called it something fantasy sounding, and made it less deadly because "you all immediately die of cancer from cosmic radiation" wouldn't make for a fun adventure.

The "Wildspace" means, exactly, where the Astral Plane overlaps the Material Plane. Anywhere can be accessed by the Astral Plane. But here in a Wildspace, the Astral Plane itself coheres to the properties and behaviors of matter. Virtually, via Astral thought that behaves as if matter.

Specifically, there is a virtual copy of the star system that "resides" in the Astral Plane. This part of the Astral Plane is virtually matter. The information constructs in the Wildspace behave like matter does. Astral creatures who enter a Wildspace from the Astral Sea can age there the same way Material creatures age.

Curiously, the Astral Sea itself cannot be seen by those who are in the Wildspace. One can only see the "silvery haze" of the Astral Sea as one is exiting the Wildspace. There in the Astral Sea, the Astral Plane no longer coheres to the informational influence of the Material Plane. One is free from Material constraints, and immortal.

Wildspace sectors are like bubbles in the ocean. As you approach the edge of the bubble, you see the ocean. This isn't because the ocean permeates the bubble which is a virtual, illusory copy of the space the ocean occupies.

You are making things up. I quoted and highlighted the exact text you are using. None of what you are saying is in that text.

One can breathe in the Astral Sea virtually. There is virtual air there, the stuff of thought and dream, rather than of gaseous matter. "Souls" can breathe if they want to. Souls dont "need" food or drink, but they can enjoy them harmlessly for pleasure. They dont need air, but can take breaths harmlessly. Souls exist "indefinitely". People can breathe in dreams. There is no aging. Astral creatures are immortal. These dream constructs of the Astral Sea are eternal beings.

Yes, when you enter the Astral Sea, the rules of the Astral Sea apply to you. That doesn't mean that Wildspace is a virtual representation of something that allows you to be a ghost on the planet. It doesn't mean you didn't physically enter the Astral Sea by flying a spaceship into it.

A spelljammer is a "magic item". The ship itself and its helm that steers it have magical powers. This magic item has planeshifting capability. A spelljammer can shift out of the mode of existence of the matter of the Material Plane and into the mode of existence of the thought of the Astral Plane, and navigate both its Astral Sea and its Wildspaces.

No, it does not have planeshifting capabilities. No it cannot shift the mode of its existence. You want to know what a Spelljamming helm does?

This. Exactly this and no more.

The function of this ornate chair is to propel and maneuver a ship on which it has been installed through space and air. It can also propel and maneuver a ship on water or underwater, provided the ship is built for such travel. The ship in question must weigh 1 ton or more.

The sensation of being attuned to a spelljamming helm is akin to the pins-and-needles effect one experiences after one's arm or leg falls asleep, but not as painful.

While attuned to a spelljamming helm and sitting in it, you gain the following abilities for as long as you maintain concentration (as if concentrating on a spell):

• You can use the spelljamming helm to move the ship through space, air, or water up to the ship's speed. If the ship is in space and no other objects weighing 1 ton or more are within 1 mile of it, you can use the spelljamming helm to move the vessel fast enough to travel 100 million miles in 24 hours.
• You can steer the vessel, albeit in a somewhat clumsy fashion, in much the way that a rudder or oars can be used to maneuver a seafaring ship.
• At any time, you can see and hear what's happening on and around the vessel as though you were standing in a location of your choice aboard it.

Transfer Attunement: You can use an action to touch a willing spellcaster. That creature attunes to the spelljamming helm immediately, and your attunement to it ends.


You can use the Helm to move the ship through Space, through Air, and through Water. You cannot use it to plane shift. You cannot use it to become immaterial. You cannot use it to become a thought-form and glide across the dreams of humanity. You can use it to move a physical ship through water, through air, and through the void of space. It cannot shift the mode of its existence.

Stop trying to make this fit into your conception of the planes. It doesn't work that way. You are just wrong.

 

[Yaarel]

I also quoted the book.

Hence, the detailed response.

Reference needed. Where does it state that the Astral Sea lacks stars?

You are logical person. You can determine this for yourself.

The Astral Sea is a "silvery void". The Wildspace is a place that has a star system.

How do you need me to logically conclude that the Astral Sea itself lacks stars?

The Wildspaces have stars. The Astral Sea is void of them.

This is self-evident, axiomatic, logic.

Except when you leave a galaxy, the Wildspace to be more specific, you enter the Astral Sea.

The Astral Sea is nonidentical with the outer space of the Material Plane.

The Astral Sea has a silvery haze. The outer space of the Material Plane doenst.

The Astral Plane and the Material Plane are separate planes of existence.

Yes, the things inside the airless pocket exist inside the airless pocket. Which can include things like air. Note: Reality, where we exist in an airless void known as space, which includes things that are not an airless void like the planet Jupiter, the planet mars, The Sun also known as Sol, and the planet Earth. So, while technically you are currently in space, we would generally say that, since you are on the planet Earth, you are not in space.

You seem to think the Astral Plane and the Material Plane are the same thing?

They arent.

And, yet again, this "virtual reality" terminology and view-point is entirely made-up by you. It doesn't even apply to the Astral Plane, because if you are on the Astral Plane you can't look around and see the Material Plane. You are just twisting the cosmology presented until it snaps and forms the shape you want.

If a character is in the Astral Plane, in the Wildspace of it, the character can observe the Material Plane.

That is what it means when it says the Wildspace (which is part of the Astral Plane) overlaps the Material Plane.

Edit: To try and make this less confrontational, let me ask you this.

I appreciate that.

If you are correct, why is it impossible to fly a spelljammer through a planet?

Re a spelljammer that planeshifts from the Material Plane into the Wildspace of the Astral Plane.

It cannot fly thru a planet, because this part of the Astral Plane itself simulates matter. Thus the Astral virtual ship would virtually crash into the Astral virtual planet.


The references to "virtual reality" and "augmented reality" where virtual constructs superimpose over reallife things are helpful analogies to understand what is going on here in D&D.

The point is, in D&D in the Astral Plane, things are made out of "thought". They arent made out of matter. That is why the analogy of "virtual reality" and "information theory" are useful here.

The Astral Plane is a realm of thought − including archetypes, ideals, ethics, symbols, concepts, language, patterns, math, dreams, and so on − in other words a mode of existence that is made out of information.

These ideas, these patterns, these "words of creation", are the Astral thoughts that function like a blueprint for the creation of the rest of the multiverse. They exist as information. The creation of matter comes later, and elsewhere, in an different plane of existence, according to the Astral "words".

To quote the text, when speaking about the speed of a spelljammer, "A spelljamming ship automatically slows to its flying speed (discussed later in this chapter) when it comes within 1 mile of something weighing 1 ton or more, such as another ship, a kindori (see Boo's Astral Menagerie), an asteroid, or a planet." Additionally, when speaking about the air envelops: "The air envelope around a habitable planet or moon is called an atmosphere. An atmosphere is a special kind of air envelope that replenishes itself constantly. A creature or an object can refresh its air envelope by entering the atmosphere of a planet or moon".

Not sure where you are going with these finer points.

The context of the citation refers to the Wildspace where the vacuum of space as well as meteors, a planet, and so on, can be found.

The Wildspace overlaps an entire star system, such as a sun and the planets orbiting around it. It is possible to fly from one planet to an other within a Wildspace. (It is also possible to teleport from one planet to an other within a Wildspace.) The references to objects big enough to have its own gravitational pull including to pull air around it, refers to traveling between planets, and similar within a star system. It is making a reasonably straightforward point that, when one is on the surface of a planet, one doesnt run out of air. The air of a planet is self-sustaining and (its oxygen) is self-replenishing.

The speed of a spelljammer in a Wildspace is sensitive to nearby gravitational sources. (The gamist reason for this design is to allow the DM to force an encounter, such as a spelljammer of Vampires forcing the spelljammer that the player characters are on to slow down, thus allowing the Vampires to attack them. Thus spelljammers can force each other to slow down and encounter each other. The flavor reason is sensitivity to each others gravity.) Meanwhile, the description explicitly says not to worry about crashing into space debris when the spelljammer is traveling at extremely high speeds.

and finally when speaking about Gravity: "For an object the size of a planet or moon, gravity pulls everything toward the center of the body, meaning that creatures can stand upright anywhere on the surface, and dropped objects fall perpendicular to the surface they land on." which is DOES NOT allow for the Gravity Plane that is found on Spelljammers and other smaller objects. In fact, no mention of passing a gravity plane when dealing with a planet exists.

Not sure where you are going with this.

But, the description explicitly says, "The spelljamming ship automatically slows ... when close to ... a planet." So, interacting with a planet while in the Astral Plane, is virtually identical to interacting with a planet while in the Material Plane. (Namely, the normal game rules apply.)

If, while in wildspace, you were not material, why would you need to breath?

Again, unlike the Astral Sea, the Astral Wildspace closely overlaps the Material Plane and behaves accordingly. Thus, while in the "air envelope" of a planet, one can breathe normally, but if in outer space between planets, one must have a source of air, just like one would in the Material Plane.

The environment changes when exiting the influence of the Material Plane and entering the Astral Sea.

In the Astral Sea there is virtual air. "But is the air real, or does this heavnely realm merely trick creatures into thinking they're breathing?" The air of the Astral Plane is made out of thought and dream.

Why could you interact with the atmosphere? Why does the planet's gravity matter, and if you could fall through the planet as an immaterial ghost, why does nothing state that, or mention anything about floating in the core of the planet?

I already addressed this earlier. In the Wildspace, the thought stuff of the Astral Plane behaves as if matter.

This is all because Wildspace if physical.

It is virtually physical. The Wildspace is still "thought and dream".

It is just space. Normal space. they just called it something fantasy sounding, and made it less deadly because "you all immediately die of cancer from cosmic radiation" wouldn't make for a fun adventure.

Not quite.

Within one star system, the Wildspace simulates the information of the sun, planets, and so on. Likewise the empty space between the sun and the planets is also simulated.

However, in the Material Plane, there can be one star system with a planet (such as Toril), and there can be an other galaxy far, far, away, with a different star system with a different planet (perhaps such as Oerth). The emptiness of outer space between star systems is bleak empty space in the Material Plane − there is nothing magical about this − it is empty − with cosmic radiation and so on. The star systems are extremely far away from each other.

The trick to reaching these other star systems is by exiting the limitations of the Material Plane and entering Plane of thought and dream, where one can travel via "spiritual state" instead of mundane distances.

The Astral Sea is a silvery haze. This silvery haze cannot be seen in the Material Plane. In the Material Plane, one just sees emptiness between one star system and an other.

Wildspace sectors are like bubbles in the ocean. As you approach the edge of the bubble, you see the ocean. This isn't because the ocean permeates the bubble which is a virtual, illusory copy of the space the ocean occupies.

Exactly. This "ocean" is the Astral Sea of thought and dream.

Within this thoughtscape, each Wildspace is like a bubble. Within the thoughtscape, the distances between these bubbles are unfixed, sometimes two star systems might be dreamt to be very close to each other, sometimes the two might be dreamt to be very far from each other. There is no constancy.

"Wildspace systems aren't fixed in certain locations in the multiverse. Because they are constantly in motion, like corks bobbing in water, no reliable devices exist to help plot a course from one Wildspace system to an other."

But in the Material Plane the distances between star systems are constant. In the Material Plane, one can plainly see a star system far far away, and in principle, travel in a straight line toward it. But this isnt the case in the dreamscape of the Astral Plane, where this star system in its bubble might be anywhere at any distance.

Yes, when you enter the Astral Sea, the rules of the Astral Sea apply to you. That doesn't mean that Wildspace is a virtual representation of something that allows you to be a ghost on the planet. It doesn't mean you didn't physically enter the Astral Sea by flying a spaceship into it.

The Wildspace never ceases to be the Astral Plane.

The Astral Plane and the Material Plane are not the same thing.

No, it does not have planeshifting capabilities. No it cannot shift the mode of its existence. You want to know what a Spelljamming helm does?

This. Exactly this and no more.

The function of this ornate chair is to propel and maneuver a ship on which it has been installed through space and air. It can also propel and maneuver a ship on water or underwater, provided the ship is built for such travel. The ship in question must weigh 1 ton or more.

The sensation of being attuned to a spelljamming helm is akin to the pins-and-needles effect one experiences after one's arm or leg falls asleep, but not as painful.

While attuned to a spelljamming helm and sitting in it, you gain the following abilities for as long as you maintain concentration (as if concentrating on a spell):

• You can use the spelljamming helm to move the ship through space, air, or water up to the ship's speed. If the ship is in space and no other objects weighing 1 ton or more are within 1 mile of it, you can use the spelljamming helm to move the vessel fast enough to travel 100 million miles in 24 hours.
• You can steer the vessel, albeit in a somewhat clumsy fashion, in much the way that a rudder or oars can be used to maneuver a seafaring ship.
• At any time, you can see and hear what's happening on and around the vessel as though you were standing in a location of your choice aboard it.

Transfer Attunement: You can use an action to touch a willing spellcaster. That creature attunes to the spelljamming helm immediately, and your attunement to it ends.

The spelljammer ship can exist in the Material Plane. But it can never reach an other far away star system if remaining in the Material Plane. "A ship that wants to travel from one Wildspace system to an other must cross the Astral Sea" ("unless it has some other magical means of traveling from one world in the multiverse to an other").

The spelljammer travels magically, thru the Astral Plane magically, thru its Astral Sea, where it becomes possible to reach destinations whose Material distances are otherwise impracticable.

It is kinda like going into "hyperspace" because actual Material space is too far away.

You can use the Helm to move the ship through Space, through Air, and through Water. You cannot use it to plane shift. You cannot use it to become immaterial. You cannot use it to become a thought-form and glide across the dreams of humanity. You can use it to move a physical ship through water, through air, and through the void of space. It cannot shift the mode of its existence.

Stop trying to make this fit into your conception of the planes. It doesn't work that way. You are just wrong.

Simply entering the Astral Plane, from the Material Plane, is a planeshift.

Relatedly, if there is a place in the Material Plane where the "veil is thin" between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane, then to simply walk thru threshold is a planeshift from the Material into the Ethereal.

To shift from any Plane of existence to any other Plane of existence is a planeshift.

 

[Yaarel]

To be clear, the Wildspace is the Astral Plane.

"Wildspace and the Astral Sea together comprise the Astral Plane." (Spelljammer, Guide 4).

"Wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlaps with the Material Plane." (Spelljammer, Guide 20).

The Wildspace is a part of the Astral Plane. Both the Astral Sea and the Wildspaces are regions of the Astral Plane.

In the Wildspace, the Astral Plane itself coheres with the matter of the Material Plane. Here, the Material Plane is observable from the Astral Plane.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You are logical person. You can determine this for yourself.

The Astral Sea is a "silvery void". The Wildspace is a place that has a star system.

How do you need me to logically conclude that the Astral Sea itself lacks stars?

The Wildspaces have stars. The Astral Sea is void of them.

This is self-evident, axiomatic, logic.

So, nothing states it. You have just assumed it. That is poor practice, as logic does not always lead to truth.

The Astral Sea is nonidentical with the outer space of the Material Plane.

The Astral Sea has a silvery haze. The outer space of the Material Plane doenst.

The Astral Plane and the Material Plane are separate planes of existence.

They may be seperate planes of existence, but they LITERALLY state that once you leave the airless void around a planet, ie space, ie wildspace, you enter the astral sea. You cannot deny this, without rejecting the reality of the text.

You seem to think the Astral Plane and the Material Plane are the same thing?

They arent.

No, I seem to have read the text, and accepted what it described, instead of replacing it with my own view of the worlds of DnD.

If a character is in the Astral Plane, in the Wildspace of it, the character can observe the Material Plane.

That is what it means when it says the Wildspace (which is part of the Astral Plane) overlaps the Material Plane.

If they are in Wildspace, they are not in the Astral Sea. Those are two different places.

Re a spelljammer that planeshifts from the Material Plane into the Wildspace of the Astral Plane.

It cannot fly thru a planet, because this part of the Astral Plane itself simulates matter. Thus the Astral virtual ship would virtually crash into the Astral virtual planet.

A spelljammer cannot planeshift. It never becomes virtual. It cannot fly through a planet because both things are physical.

The references to "virtual reality" and "augmented reality" where virtual constructs superimpose over reallife things are helpful analogies to understand what is going on here in D&D.

The point is, in D&D in the Astral Plane, things are made out of "thought". They arent made out of matter. That is why the analogy of "virtual reality" and "information theory" are useful here.

The Astral Plane is a realm of thought − including archetypes, ideals, ethics, symbols, concepts, language, patterns, math, dreams, and so on − in other words a mode of existence that is made out of information.

These ideas, these patterns, these "words of creation", are the Astral thoughts that function like a blueprint for the creation of the rest of the multiverse. They exist as information. The creation of matter comes later, and elsewhere, in an different plane of existence, according to the Astral "words".

Except you are using it to conclude things which are false. The Astral Sea may be a realm of thought, but it is one you can physically fly a physical ship in and out of. You keep denying this, but it is a fact.

Not sure where you are going with these finer points.

The context of the citation refers to the Wildspace where the vacuum of space as well as meteors, a planet, and so on, can be found.

The Wildspace overlaps an entire star system, such as a sun and the planets orbiting around it. It is possible to fly from one planet to an other within a Wildspace. (It is also possible to teleport from one planet to an other within a Wildspace.) The references to objects big enough to have its own gravitational pull including to pull air around it, refers to traveling between planets, and similar within a star system. It is making a reasonably straightforward point that, when one is on the surface of a planet, one doesnt run out of air. The air of a planet is self-sustaining and (its oxygen) is self-replenishing.

The speed of a spelljammer in a Wildspace is sensitive to nearby gravitational sources. (The gamist reason for this design is to allow the DM to force an encounter, such as a spelljammer of Vampires forcing the spelljammer that the player characters are on to slow down, thus allowing the Vampires to attack them. Thus spelljammers can force each other to slow down and encounter each other. The flavor reason is sensitivity to each others gravity.) Meanwhile, the description explicitly says not to worry about crashing into space debris when the spelljammer is traveling at extremely high speeds.

Exactly. In every single possible way, the ship is physical and physically moving. It dodges small debris automatically, it can be boarded, and it interacts with the atmosphere of the planet. It is not a virtual simulation of reality, it is reality.

Not sure where you are going with this.

But, the description explicitly says, "The spelljamming ship automatically slows ... when close to ... a planet." So, interacting with a planet while in the Astral Plane, is virtually identical to interacting with a planet while in the Material Plane. (Namely, the normal game rules apply.)

It is not virtually identical, because you cannot interact with a planet on the material realm from the Astral Sea. You are slowing down and interacting with the planet PHYSICALLY. This is why the ship slows down. Because both things are physical.

Again, unlike the Astral Sea, the Astral Wildspace closely overlaps the Material Plane and behaves accordingly. Thus, while in the "air envelope" of a planet, one can breathe normally, but if in outer space between planets, one must have a source of air, just like one would in the Material Plane.

The environment changes when exiting the influence of the Material Plane and entering the Astral Sea.

In the Astral Sea there is virtual air. "But is the air real, or does this heavnely realm merely trick creatures into thinking they're breathing?" The air of the Astral Plane is made out of thought and dream.

So, according to you, Astral Wildspace makes you a ghost that in every concievable way interacts as though they are materially present. My position? You are materially present. Your hypothesis about entering wildspace being a phase shift into a throughtform is wrong.

Not quite.

Within one star system, the Wildspace simulates the information of the sun, planets, and so on. Likewise the empty space between the sun and the planets is also simulated.

However, in the Material Plane, there can be one star system with a planet (such as Toril), and there can be an other galaxy far, far, away, with a different star system with a different planet (perhaps such as Oerth). The emptiness of outer space between star systems is bleak empty space in the Material Plane − there is nothing magical about this − it is empty − with cosmic radiation and so on. The star systems are extremely far away from each other.

The trick to reaching these other star systems is by exiting the limitations of the Material Plane and entering Plane of thought and dream, where one can travel via "spiritual state" instead of mundane distances.

The Astral Sea is a silvery haze. This silvery haze cannot be seen in the Material Plane. In the Material Plane, one just sees emptiness between one star system and an other.

False. If this were true, you could teleport from Toril to Oerth. You can't. The only way to go between them is via the Astral Sea or other portals. There are no galaxies far far away in physical space, you go to the edge of physical space, enter the astral plane, and then travel from there to other realms.

Exactly. This "ocean" is the Astral Sea of thought and dream.

Within this thoughtscape, each Wildspace is like a bubble. Within the thoughtscape, the distances between these bubbles are unfixed, sometimes two star systems might be dreamt to be very close to each other, sometimes the two might be dreamt to be very far from each other. There is no constancy.

"Wildspace systems aren't fixed in certain locations in the multiverse. Because they are constantly in motion, like corks bobbing in water, no reliable devices exist to help plot a course from one Wildspace system to an other."

But in the Material Plane the distances between star systems are constant. In the Material Plane, one can plainly see a star system far far away, and in principle, travel in a straight line toward it. But this isnt the case in the dreamscape of the Astral Plane, where this star system in its bubble might be anywhere at any distance.

In the material plane, there aren't multiple star systems. You cannot see a star system far far away, you cannot travel towards it and never touch the Astral. Stop making things up. That isn't how DnD works.

The spelljammer ship can exist in the Material Plane. But it can never reach an other far away star system if remaining in the Material Plane. "A ship that wants to travel from one Wildspace system to an other must cross the Astral Sea" ("unless it has some other magical means of traveling from one world in the multiverse to an other").

You are right, it can never do the impossible. Just like I can never leave North America and reach Australia without crossing an ocean. And I can't leave Earth and reach Neptune without crossing the void of space. There is no path from one DnD material plane to another without crossing the Astral Sea. Not that it is too far or too long such a path does not exist.

The spelljammer travels magically, thru the Astral Plane magically, thru its Astral Sea, where it becomes possible to reach destinations whose Material distances are otherwise impracticable.

It is kinda like going into "hyperspace" because actual Material space is too far away.

It does not travel magically. It is PROPELLED magically. Again, I listed every single capabitity of a spelljammer. None of them speak about shifting between planes. None of them create air pockets. None of them phase into virtual thoughtforms. None of the things you are claiming are real. All a spelljammer helm does is allow a ship to fly, through water, through air, and through the void of space. That's it.

Simply entering the Astral Plane, from the Material Plane, is a planeshift.

Relatedly, if there is a place in the Material Plane where the "veil is thin" between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane, then to simply walk thru threshold is a planeshift from the Material into the Ethereal.

To shift from any Plane of existence to any other Plane of existence is a planeshift.

And therefore by your definition a cart made of cinderblocks would have "planeshifting capabilities" making it a useless definition.

There is no portal unless you want to conceive of the borders between the atmosphere of the planet, the void of the wild space, and the silver mists of the Astral Sea as portals between dimensions.