Playtest: managing per encounter abilities of a Rogue and Fighter

[Imaro]

I didn't tend to use my best spell first. If anything I tended to work in the opposite direction. Hold back my best spells while the party had HP and healing to burn. Save those really good spells for the "Oh, St!" moment when HP and healing were running out and I knew we would have to rest up soon.

Yeah this was my experience in 3e...more of an ebb and flow or testing of abilities if you will. Most spellcasters (I played with) didn't want to waste their best spells unless they had to, but when they felt like they did (Desperation or serious danger set in) they did.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

It's funny, but I think I can answer this, from experience with SW saga and Final Fantasy videogames. If you unleash a powerful attack early it causes more damage and, if focused on one opponent, there is a greater likelihood of one of your opponents dropping earlier in the fight...thus their damage potential is reduced (over time) and it's less likely they will cause as much harm. Think of it this way...


Scenario 1: vs. 3 goblins
Encounter power attack auto-kill one now only two can actually try to hit you and you take less damage on avg per round
Attack
Attack
Oh, crap! Long-term resource power attack!

Scenario 2: vs. 3 goblins
Attack If this doesn't drop one you now have to take 3 attacks against you and you're taking higher amounts of damage that are more likely to put you in a precarious position
Attack
Crap! Encounter power attack
Holy crap! Long-term resource power attack

OK, that makes sense to me. Thanks.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I think it's not even playtest language: I forget where I read this, but to put the 3rd ed rules through their paces, didn't they treat D&D as a board game and play it against monsters as a skirmish game?

I think it's just as part of testing a rules widget, and will never see the light of (game) day.

I think this is right. The point of playtesting to "test" with "play." If you're not playing (because your character died), you're not really doing your job. The whole point of playtesting is to expose as many race/class combos to as many rules as possible in the shortest period of time, and see what works and doesn't - not to perfectly recreate the "role" half of roleplaying.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I didn't tend to use my best spell first. If anything I tended to work in the opposite direction. Hold back my best spells while the party had HP and healing to burn. Save those really good spells for the "Oh, St!" moment when HP and healing were running out and I knew we would have to rest up soon.

Actually, Peter S is doing exactly what you were doing: conserving your best per day resource. Spells were a per day resource in 3E, so if Fireball is your best spell, don't waste it on goblins that the Fighters can handle without your help.

But if Fireball is a per-encounter resource in 4E there's no reason not to use it every time; and you're usually best off using it first. Because your enemies (probably) at full HP none of the damage will be "wasted", and maybe you'll crit one before he even gets any actions in.

Actions are the most precious resource in D&D. Without actions there are no healing, no attacks, no spells, no retreat, no surrender. If you can use one action (Fireball) to kill one opponent and to reduce the lifespan of two others from 4 rounds to 2 rounds, you have just spent one action to deny the other side the use of 8 (4+2*2) actions. That's a great move.

Hopefully 4E will be a game where it's a good move, but not always the best move. Because that, as Imaro implied, gets predictable and boring.

 

[Aloïsius]

Hopefully 4E will be a game where it's a good move, but not always the best move. Because that, as Imaro implied, gets predictable and boring.

Illusions and feints are the best way to deal with this, because they allow you to make the ennemy waste its more powerfull option in the first rounds.

 

[Cadfan]

There are a couple of ways to avoid a system where players always use their best per encounter powers on the first round of a fight, and work downwards from there until they run out.

The simplest is to create a trigger condition that must be met before a particular power can be used. One power might only work on bloodied opponents. Another might only work if the character has dropped a foe earlier in the round (see Cleave). A third might be usable only if the character using it is bloodied.

Another way is to make powers highly situational, and based upon battlefield location. A parry that redirects an attack from one opponent to another opponent might require both opponents to be in melee reach of each other, and of the character. Such a power wouldn't be usable until that situation was arranged.

Attacks that work well with teammates have to wait until the teammate is in position. For example, an attack that knocks foes backwards might combine well with a teammates area of effect ability. It wouldn't be wise to use it until the teammate was ready and in position, though. So it wouldn't be used immediately.

Effects which work like the Power Word spells aren't usually used first in combat. An enemy has to be damaged first.

Still others could work on a combination system. This can be done stealthily, avoiding a video game combo feel. For example, a fighter might have a special attack that is particularly effective against a flatfooted opponent. This would lead to it being used situationally in the beginning of fights. But if he had another special attack that knocked an opponent off balance rendering the opponent flatfooted until the end of the fighter's next turn, it creates a second use for the first attack that happens later in the combat.

There are probably more ways to do this. But the general rule is still going to be to use your best attacks first, since doing so lets you drop enemies faster. And since the best way to avoid taking damage is to kill enemies as quickly as possible, this will be the predominant strategy.

 

[Piratecat]

I think it's not even playtest language: I forget where I read this, but to put the 3rd ed rules through their paces, didn't they treat D&D as a board game and play it against monsters as a skirmish game?

I think it's just as part of testing a rules widget, and will never see the light of (game) day.

Yup. Our group tested low-CR monsters for Skip Williams, and we spent a lot of time just having the PCs fight monster X. We'd right down the fatalties and resources used and move on to the next monster.

I have no doubt that they wanted to test the scenario, so the pc reappeared. That wouldn't be in the rules.

 

[Imaro]

There are a couple of ways to avoid a system where players always use their best per encounter powers on the first round of a fight, and work downwards from there until they run out.

The simplest is to create a trigger condition that must be met before a particular power can be used. One power might only work on bloodied opponents. Another might only work if the character has dropped a foe earlier in the round (see Cleave). A third might be usable only if the character using it is bloodied.

Another way is to make powers highly situational, and based upon battlefield location. A parry that redirects an attack from one opponent to another opponent might require both opponents to be in melee reach of each other, and of the character. Such a power wouldn't be usable until that situation was arranged.

Attacks that work well with teammates have to wait until the teammate is in position. For example, an attack that knocks foes backwards might combine well with a teammates area of effect ability. It wouldn't be wise to use it until the teammate was ready and in position, though. So it wouldn't be used immediately.

Effects which work like the Power Word spells aren't usually used first in combat. An enemy has to be damaged first.

Still others could work on a combination system. This can be done stealthily, avoiding a video game combo feel. For example, a fighter might have a special attack that is particularly effective against a flatfooted opponent. This would lead to it being used situationally in the beginning of fights. But if he had another special attack that knocked an opponent off balance rendering the opponent flatfooted until the end of the fighter's next turn, it creates a second use for the first attack that happens later in the combat.

There are probably more ways to do this. But the general rule is still going to be to use your best attacks first, since doing so lets you drop enemies faster. And since the best way to avoid taking damage is to kill enemies as quickly as possible, this will be the predominant strategy.

While a good idea in theory...I see these "solutions" as causing more book keeping and complexity especially for a new player (now I have to remeber not only the mechanical implication of a "power" but also the specific condition that allows it's use.). Another thing to consider is that the rate at which players gain abilities is now greater than in 3e and this could mean a multitude more complexity in these cases. I really hope a bunch of specific if than cases or maneuvers that must be selectively combo'd with the maneuvers another player may or may not have, is not how they solve this problem.

YMMV of course.

 

[Cadfan]

While a good idea in theory...I see these "solutions" as causing more book keeping and complexity especially for a new player (now I have to remeber not only the mechanical implication of a "power" but also the specific condition that allows it's use.). Another thing to consider is that the rate at which players gain abilities is now greater than in 3e and this could mean a multitude more complexity in these cases. I really hope a bunch of specific if than cases or maneuvers that must be selectively combo'd with the maneuvers another player may or may not have, is not how they solve this problem.

YMMV of course.

If per encounter abilities work a bit like Tome of Battle abilities, I don't think this will be a problem. The number of per encounter maneuvers prepared at any given time was so small at low levels that I wouldn't expect it to be an issue. And even at high levels, you didn't have all that many.

The number known was obviously higher, but that's less of a problem since you don't have to remember that information during gameplay. And even the class with the most maneuvers known only had what, 25 at level 20?

As for the bookkeeping created by a combo system, the trick is to not let the players know its a combo system. Looking at the example I gave, each attack functions individually. The fact that they combo isn't written into their description, its an emergent property.

 

[inkmonkeys]

Hopefully 4E will be a game where it's a good move, but not always the best move.

Whether or not it's best or desirable to open with an encounter power will vary by power, by class, by enemy, by environment, and probably other things such as hp remaining. With Wilbur, I chose a straightforward encounter power that makes it an easy choice for use as opener, the tactical reasons to hold off (and they exist) aren't often enough of a reward to tempt me away from using the bigger attack. I believe you've heard of Wallop?