D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Clint_L]

This thread is doing a good job of drilling into what prevents the monk from really working. You can see where WotC wants to go with the class - super mobile, hard hitting, but kind of fragile. They just haven't cracked how to execute it. We tend to focus on lack of resources (di/ki points) as the root of the monks problems, but reading through the various responses has made me realize that the problem is that the monk is overly reliant on two resources, the other being bonus actions.

Many classes/sub-classes have too few options for their bonus actions. The monks have the opposite problem: all their cool monk stuff runs off their one bonus action. Want more offence? Bonus action. Want more defence? Bonus action. Want more mobility? Bonus action.

The design should decouple monks from being so reliant on their bonus action.

 

[Horwath]

That would be a nerf...

only at level 1.

Then again, I'm the one saying that monk needs d12 HD to compensate being melee with poor armor.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm a fan of 11 + dex + prof mod myself. Makes the monk less MAD.

Being able to wear medium armor like moon druids would be good too, a monk PC at the table tends to create an unreasonable pressure to make the gm give out bracers of defense and ring/cloak of protection because Bob fancies himself a "tank" .

Spoiler: it's not like there isn't precident

It really screws things up if the plate + shield spell gish gets those items cause the monk player gets tired of trying to force kwai Chang Kane or Ang into d&d and Dies "accidentally" in order for it's player wants to make a new PC too.

 

[Asisreo]

Name a single class ability that indicates a monk should shoot people.

Can you do so about the 2014 rogue?

In fact, ranged weapons are now also monk weapons in the new UA.

But y'know what? It doesn't matter. If you're so averse to the class fantasy of a monk having a ranged weapon because of your idea that "he has unarmed strikes therefore he must always fight with melee weapon", then at least we can agree that the monk would use and throw their spears, handaxes, and daggers.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

only at level 1.

Then again, I'm the one saying that monk needs d12 HD to compensate being melee with poor armor.

I would not complain either.

I still think giving dodge for free in some way would be nicer.

 

[Clint_L]

Can you do so about the 2014 rogue?

In fact, ranged weapons are now also monk weapons in the new UA.

But y'know what? It doesn't matter. If you're so averse to the class fantasy of a monk having a ranged weapon because of your idea that "he has unarmed strikes therefore he must always fight with melee weapon", then at least we can agree that the monk would use and throw their spears, handaxes, and daggers.

Yes, we all know that monks are capable of using ranged weapons. Here’s a cookie.

Everyone but you seems to understand that they are not designed for it, and if you want to be a ranged specialist monk is one of the worst options in the game. Literally the only ability they have specifically relating to ranged attacks is defensive. Only paladin and barbarian would be more pointless for a ranged build.

So if your best option as monk is ranged attacks, then maybe ranger, rogue, fighter, etc. would be better, no?

Now can we get back to discussing actual issues with monks being able to execute the role for which they were intended?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Are the enemies just standing next to the wizard? Or did they move up?

We are talking about class identity. If their class identity can be removed by the enemies standing next to the spellcaster, that is a flippin' weak identity.

Like, you are trying to win the argument of "this tactic is possible" but you are locking yourself in a corner of this being the monk's entire point.

It comes from the flexibility they have.

What flexibility? Monks actually have very little flexibility, seriously "they can dash as a bonus action" sure, if they have the points. Currently they can do that twice. "They can unleash so many attacks" sure, if they have the points, they can do that twice. Compare to classes like the rogue or paladin. The Rogue currently is highly manueverable... forever, and they deal great damage... forever and they now inflict status conditions... forever. They never run out. The paladin has incredible flexibility with their spell slots, but they run out of those... except they also have the lay on hands... and the channel divinty... and then they get abilities that never run out like Improved Divine Smite and their aura.

where are the enemies?
And what kind are they?
Did you scout ahead?

You need to give me more specifics about the battle field before i can tell you my turn one.

So, the general plan for the monk identity is to rush the backline when the melee heavies have left it exposed. But on turn one before the enemy moves... you don't have a general plan. You need to know all the specifics so you can formulate the right answer to make monks seem like they shouldn't be a melee warrior class like they are designed to be.

Ideal scenario is you scout ahead. Spot melee only enemies. And kite them all with a bow.

Then the monk is a design failure. Simply all there is to it. If your ideal is to never use the monk abilities, then the monk has failed. You might as well play a rogue with extra attack.

That is one of the many thing you could do.

Dealing damage and taking none in return is worth a ki point. Certainly be broken if you could do it every turn.

Rogues can do it every turn. Anyone with the mobile feat can do it every turn. Neither of those are seen as broken, so why is it broken on the monk?

At level 2, you can go 80' and still attack a few times per short rest.

Also. You can always dash as a regular action.

dash for 2 turns. Move and shoot the 3rd
That's 80+80+40 = 200'
Enemies can move 180' in the same 3 turns.

Takes a while, but no ki needed.

At level 2, you can bonus action dash twice per short rest. That's it. And again, if your ideal is to use the class designed to fight with their fists to never once throw a punch but instead utilize a bow and arrow, the class is a design failure.

Yes. Both are skirmishers.

Did you want the monk to be yet another fighter/barbarian/paladin/ranger? Just attack nearest enemy and roll dice till one of you drops?

Much rather have a 2nd rogue.

I'd much rather them be a good copy of the rogue then, instead of a poor copy that doesn't function as advertised.

Sorcerer is just a poor copy of a wizard.
Ranger is just a poor copy of a fighter/druid.
... I could go on.

Yes, you can continue to be wrong.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Can you do so about the 2014 rogue?

In fact, ranged weapons are now also monk weapons in the new UA.

Sneak attack? It does literally say it only works with finesse weapons and RANGED weapons. Kind of a big neon sign that you should use ranged weapons when your level 1 iconic feature specifically calls them out.

But y'know what? It doesn't matter. If you're so averse to the class fantasy of a monk having a ranged weapon because of your idea that "he has unarmed strikes therefore he must always fight with melee weapon", then at least we can agree that the monk would use and throw their spears, handaxes, and daggers.

It isn't that he "has" unarmed strikes. Seriously, did you read the monk? Let us review it.

Level 1: (1) Martial arts allows you to use unarmed strikes with dexterity. (2) Martial Arts gives you a bonus action unarmed strike whenever you attack. (3) Martial Arts increase the damage die of your unarmed strikes.

Level 2: (4) Flurry of Blows gives you more unarmed strikes

Level 3: (5) Warrior of the Elements allows you to change the damage of your unarmed strikes. (6) Warrior of the Elements allows you to push a creature with your unarmed strikes if they deal one of the damage types. (7) Warrior of the Elements increases the Range of your unarmed strikes. (8-10) The Open Hand Warrior gives you three new effects that can only be activated by using Flurry of Blows and hitting with an unarmed strike. (11) Way of Mercy allows you to swap an unarmed strike from Flurry of Blows for a use of Healing Hand. (12) Way of Mercy allows you to deal extra damage with your unarmed strikes

Level 5: (13) Stunning Strike only works for simple weapons or unarmed strikes

Level 6: (14) Empowered Strikes only works with Unarmed strikes. (15-16) Way of Mercy empowers both the healing hand and the Hand of Harm, which use unarmed strikes.

Level 11: (17) Shadow Warrior improves their teleport to allow a free unarmed strike when used. (18-19) Way of Mercy once more empowers Healing Hand and Hand of Harm when used with Flurry of Blows to make unarmed strikes.

Level 17: (20) Shadow Warrior allows you to use flurry of blows to make unarmed strikes for free. (21) Elemental Warrior increases the Strength of your unarmed strikes. (22) Warrior of the Open Hand's Quivering Palm only works with Unarmed strikes

So yes, SOMEHOW I got the impression that Unarmed strikes were in some small way important to the identity of the monk. It could have been the 22 abilities that call it out over the course of all of their subclasses and early class features. The only one that DOESN'T seem to explicitly call out the unarmed strikes early is the Shadow Monk, who instead just calls out melee attacks at level 6.

Yes, they are CAPABLE of using a ranged weapon. But they were not DESIGNED as a ranged warrior. That isn't what all of this should tell you. It should tell you that Monks want to use unarmed strikes.

 

[OB1]

This thread is doing a good job of drilling into what prevents the monk from really working. You can see where WotC wants to go with the class - super mobile, hard hitting, but kind of fragile. They just haven't cracked how to execute it. We tend to focus on lack of resources (di/ki points) as the root of the monks problems, but reading through the various responses has made me realize that the problem is that the monk is overly reliant on two resources, the other being bonus actions.

Many classes/sub-classes have too few options for their bonus actions. The monks have the opposite problem: all their cool monk stuff runs off their one bonus action. Want more offence? Bonus action. Want more defence? Bonus action. Want more mobility? Bonus action.

The design should decouple monks from being so reliant on their bonus action.

Agreed and think you were right on with your two fixes.

Wis + Monk Level Di (doubles your Di pool at early levels, tapers off as you go higher)

FoB, when you take the attack action, you can spend 1 ki point to make an additional unarmed strike. (This frees up your bonus action for SotW or PD, and costs you only 25-33% of your offense if you use your BA to do something other than attack, instead of the 50-66% with the current Monk)

Finally, why not make Unarmored Defense be Str+Dex+Wis? It's super MAD, but makes a STR based monk a real option and allows higher AC builds.

 

[mellored]

What flexibility? Monks actually have very little flexibility, seriously "they can dash as a bonus action" sure, if they have the points. Currently they can do that twice. "They can unleash so many attacks" sure, if they have the points, they can do that twice. Compare to classes like the rogue or paladin. The Rogue currently is highly manueverable... forever, and they deal great damage... forever and they now inflict status conditions... forever. They never run out. The paladin has incredible flexibility with their spell slots, but they run out of those... except they also have the lay on hands... and the channel divinty... and then they get abilities that never run out like Improved Divine Smite and their aura.

A paladin / rogue multiclass would also be pretty flexible. But the fact you need 2 different classes to do what a monk can do proves my point.

Otherwise you dodge and the rogue gets no sneak attack.
And you kite the paladin.

But on turn one before the enemy moves... you don't have a general plan.

Nope.
My plan is flexible.