D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Asisreo]

If you have designed a wizard class that, as a class, says "I am better off using my crossbow than using a cantrip" then you have not designed a good wizard class that is supposed to be using cantrips.

Okay, but the monk isn't better off using a crossbow, except in certain circumstances.

Compare that to a wizard with +2 dex, which isn't insane for a wizard, that actually outdamages their strongest cantrip between levels 1-4.

IF your fantasy is "the monk is a designated archer class" then I have bad news for you.

You're misrepresenting my fantasy. I want a monk that is smart enough to use weapons to their advantage, not to be ranged 100% of the time. Why would you think I want a monk to be ranged all the time?

And yes, the elemental monk's reach is very cool. But there is a looming problem. The elemental monk uses that ability at the start of the fight, then they flurry.... and now they have a single point of ki left until they can get a short rest. So, are they going to be able to continue in engaging with melee? Or are they going to need to abandon their fists and rely on their bow? And if it is the second... why do we have a class built to utilize their fists who consistently abandons use of their fists? Isn't that a problem!?

Just use the Ki points sparingly and take a short rest before the next time? If the enemy isn't able to hit you with melee and you can reduce their ranged damage, you don't really need to prioritize the highest damage since it isn't much of a threat anymore.

You need context and awareness to play a monk. You can't just go "I have resource, so I must use it on damage!" You're not a paladin

Other classes don't have to do the same single repetitive task either. But they are best at what they are designed to do. And it seems monks are not best in engaging in melee with their fists. Oh, sure, they do more damage with unarmed strikes (unless you have the unarmed fighting style) than other classes but they are so unreliable in melee that even the suggestion that that is what they should be doing seems to be melting down the thread. Instead, they seem to be the best at being archers. which is not what the fantasy of the Monk IS

Wow, wait until you see the evoker wizard casting shield. Why not just be an abjuration wizard then?!

Monks are not the best at taking hits in melee. Its debatable if they're great at dodging hits since Patient Defense is rather expensive, but the best defensive ability at that point in the game.

As I said, they're the best at being disruptive while in melee. They're there to remind the enemy that their plan isn't as rigid when they get punched in the face.

 

[Asisreo]

Honestly, I think if they made Patient Defense free in exchange for half your speed, that would make it much more usable and still be fairly balanced. You're still giving up your second/third attack for the ability to be truly elusive.

Or maybe double Ki and make patient defense cost one ki while most other ki features use double.

 

[Zaukrie]

Looking at the Adept from Level Up vs the Monk.....so much more cool monk stuff. So many more Ki points. I'm not arguing to go that far, though it sure looks better/more interesting to me.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I like this a lot! I think the two bonus Unarmed Strikes off of the attack action may be too much. You can now get 3/4 attacks, SotW and PD all in a single round for 3 ki. I'd suggest keeping one of the extra Unarmed strikes as a bonus action (unless I'm reading this wrong and your saying FoB still takes a bonus action).

I think it is still saying that Flurry takes a bonus action.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Or, if you want to simplify the discipline points column, don't tie it to wisdom, tie it to proficiency as some have suggested.

So:

Level Discipline
Points
1st --
2nd 4
3rd 5
4th 6
5th 8
6th 9
7th 10
8th 11
9th 13
10th 14
11th 15
12th 16
13th 18
14th 19
15th 20
16th 21
17th 23
18th 24
19th 25
20th 26

This gives enough di points for the monk to do cool monk stuff right from level 2, yet they have enough that their high level abilities don't need to focus so hard on giving them more di points. In fact, I would add a high level ability that consumes a ton of di points - 5-6 - to act as a sort of sink, similar to a high level spell slot.

Honestly? I just removed the column. It is points equal to level, or in the fixed version points equal to level + wis mod. That isn't difficult.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I prefer tying it to Wisdom personally. Feels more thematic that way and prevents muti-classers from gaining the additional Di without Wis bumps.

How about the 3 key abilities get upgraded options at 11

Something like:

Storm of Blows - 6 di - Action - Make 1 unarmed strike against each adjacent enemy of your choice. You deal maximum damage on each hit.

Dance of the Wind - 8 di - Bonus Action - For one minute, you are under the effects of the Freedom of Movement spell. Using Step of Wind does not cost di during this time. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest.

Aggressive Defense - 6 di - Reaction (after being hit with an attack roll) - The attack misses and you can move up to 2x your speed toward the attacker without provoking opportunity attacks, if you end this movement adjacent to them, you can make 2 unarmed strikes against them.

My first thought is that those are VERY expensive. You likely have a total of 14 points, so you are essentially spending HALF your resources.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Okay, but the monk isn't better off using a crossbow, except in certain circumstances.

And those circumstances seem to be "melee with a melee opponent". Those are the circumstances where a monk is better off using a crossbow or shortbow.

You're misrepresenting my fantasy. I want a monk that is smart enough to use weapons to their advantage, not to be ranged 100% of the time. Why would you think I want a monk to be ranged all the time?

Because the only enemies that seem to be desirable for monks to be in melee with are those that cannot fight back effectively in melee. With their deflect arrows ability, you would be better off just making a new archer class and taking an feat or ability to fire in melee. It would achieve the stated goals better.

Just use the Ki points sparingly and take a short rest before the next time? If the enemy isn't able to hit you with melee and you can reduce their ranged damage, you don't really need to prioritize the highest damage since it isn't much of a threat anymore.

You need context and awareness to play a monk. You can't just go "I have resource, so I must use it on damage!" You're not a paladin

And what do you mean by "use sparingly"? I activated two iconic abilities for my character. I didn't need to dash, and I didn't need to dodge, so it isn't like I just ignored non-damage uses for my Ki, I just didn't have any reason to use them. Sure, it might not have been able to hit me, but funny thing, I generally don't play solo games. And maybe that flurry was my best chance of protecting an ally.

So is the proper way to play a monk to only use a single monk action a fight? Don't throw back missiles you catch, only increase your damage as a last resort, ect?

Also if "just take a short rest" was a good option? We wouldn't have the constant refrain that short rests need to be eliminated because no one relies on them. Short rests aren't reliable, WoTC has said many tables don't even use them.

Wow, wait until you see the evoker wizard casting shield. Why not just be an abjuration wizard then?!

Because I have more than one spell I am capable of casting, even if I cast shield most turns.

Monks are not the best at taking hits in melee. Its debatable if they're great at dodging hits since Patient Defense is rather expensive, but the best defensive ability at that point in the game.

As I said, they're the best at being disruptive while in melee. They're there to remind the enemy that their plan isn't as rigid when they get punched in the face.

Which can be done by any class. Seriously, the only reason Monks get seen as this uniquely disruptive force is because most people are used to thinking only about the frontline, and assume a character 40 ft back from that frontline is safe.

But they aren't. My archer is able to reach out and touch someone pretty trivially, no matter where they hide on the field. And suddenly the enemies plan isn't so rigid, because I can damage their backline. Same as the monk.

I want Monks to be martial controllers, utilizing the unarmed strike abilities and controlling the enemy, but also able to stand in melee, even if only for a little bit.

 

[OB1]

My first thought is that those are VERY expensive. You likely have a total of 14 points, so you are essentially spending HALF your resources.

Agree it's very expensive at level 11 and would have to be used almost as an emergency. By Tier IV though you would be able to get at least 1 off per short rest and still have plenty left in the tank for other things. I actually thought they might be too powerful even at the high di cost.

 

[Stalker0]

They are still ki limited at lower levels.

I'm more worried about it being overpowered at high levels.
20 AC, constantly disadvantage to be hit, and proficiency in all saves? Might be a bit much.

Eh compared to a barbarians, "I take half damage from everything except psychic".

Compared to a paladin's: "I have +5 to all saving throws....oh yeah and my buddies in 10 feet get it to! And I have magic armor to ratchet up my AC. Oh yeah....and I can heal myself"

Compared to a cleric's: "you move so slow through my spirit guardians you don't even get to make an attack".


I don't think disadvantage to hit is all that broken, and its still a limited ability. I mean a 10th level monk using flurry, stunning strike, and patient defense will still blow through their entire load in like 3-4 rounds.

 

[Stalker0]

Is that just after a hit is known?
Or before the roll?

I do it when you are attacked, but before the roll is made.