If I understand it right (from almost nothing other than the comment in this L&L article), the argument against the surprise rules is that players don't like the -20 initiative having effect right through the encounter. I don't understand that at all. Initiative rolls only really make any difference at all during the first round of combat; once combat gets into swing, everyone essentially goes both before *and* after everyone else! And if it so important to you, you can move about the initiative track by readying an action.
Playtest Update
- Thread starter Wizards of the Coast
- Start date
Blackwarder
Adventurer
I also don't understand why folks don't like the surprise rules... The other side is surprised, you get to move first, simple and yet not so powerfull that achieving surprise could end the combat in one round.
Warder
Warder
Pickles JG
First Post
The -20 has weird effects if new combatants join a fight.
It also leads to clumping of initiatives as its very likely that all of the surprised faction goes last. This is less fun in general in 3e & 4e.
So I do not like it either. One poor free action seemed good to me in 4e but it is pretty strong.
Really the advantage of surprise could be factored in to position & situation. Ie if you set a good ambush surprise is worth a lot. If you happen to hear the other guys 10 seconds before they hear you not so much.
He seems to be mixing up lethality of combat with the presence of fast healing. It never seemed to make combat more lethal to me to have less natural healing, just to make players take longer resting up between big fights. In combat healing maybe as 4e seems to have few random deaths in fights but still too many TPKs, as it's very hard to run away.
It also leads to clumping of initiatives as its very likely that all of the surprised faction goes last. This is less fun in general in 3e & 4e.
So I do not like it either. One poor free action seemed good to me in 4e but it is pretty strong.
Really the advantage of surprise could be factored in to position & situation. Ie if you set a good ambush surprise is worth a lot. If you happen to hear the other guys 10 seconds before they hear you not so much.
He seems to be mixing up lethality of combat with the presence of fast healing. It never seemed to make combat more lethal to me to have less natural healing, just to make players take longer resting up between big fights. In combat healing maybe as 4e seems to have few random deaths in fights but still too many TPKs, as it's very hard to run away.
That is the whole point.
There is no pressure to make or prevent ambushes, they are just so mild. That was the first thing we ditched out of play test.
Now we do it old style. One action for those that are making the surprise. then roll initiative. IF you're fast, you'll attack twice in ambush or if you're slow just once. Also, until you react(get to your initiative) you still suffer penalties for being surprised.
Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
The only thing wrong with the surprise rules is that a lot of people don't understand that -20 on initiative doesn't matter after the first round. Seriously.
Pickles JG
First Post
You must not have many games you play if one rule can prevent you playing them.Is it because it is too strong, too cumbersome or too simplistic with not stacking & all?
Kralin Thornberry
Explorer
If you look at it from the other direction though, almost half of the people playtesting it didn't like it.
And from other comments I've read around the interwebs, some of the items that have been reported as needing work are still the same things from the Friends and Family playtest.
DerekSTheRed
Explorer
It just feels like the Rogue should get sneak attack damage if he surprises an opponent even if he's not hiding. I am fine with the -20 but that can't be all you get on surprise. Again just going by feel not logic which I don't usually do.
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