Please Help! designing mammalian sub-species

[Jurble]

HEy All, Repost of a thread i posted several days ago, ,im still looking for some help/input from more experienced DMs/Designers if anyone can give me a hand Any input would be great help!

Thanks a ton!

---------------------------

Hi everyone!
so in my world i have a background of humanoid species all arising from a common ancestor (humans, dwarves, elves etc) and i am putting another group of mammallian species in which have become a variety of subspecies.

My biggest problem is turning an idea into a workable set of species, especially in terms of balancing stats and abilities. Im a pretty new DM so im kinda worried about the balancing for these. Anyway they are based partially on feline species for the most part but are able to be bipedal and quadrupedal.

For instance the more civilised species can either walk upright (reversed kneejoints) or fall back onto fours. They run better on all fours, but when sitting will sit in a typical cat fashion (thing house cat sitting)

Anyway here are the 6 Subspecies:

The Tree Hunters: Santarai (similar to Margay, a type of cat) - Mostly Tribal

-Lithe, quick (dex bonus)
-Fast? Normal Speed?
-Jumping ability (jump from tree to tree)
-Darklight vision (night hunters)
-Long sensitive whiskers (awareness of minor air movement, added perception of approaching fauna (listen or spot checks? neither really fits))
-Excelent Climbers - Very comfortable in the trees, but function ok on the ground. Climb down trees head first
-Camoflague Bonus in the Trees
-Short (Halfling size?)
-Not extremely smart but crafty (int norm/penalty, wis bonus?)
-beautiful creatures (Cha?)
-Not Strong (Str Penalty)
-tracking ability, acute sight/smell

Favoured Class: Rogue

Main Diet: Birds

This species make small tribal communities in the trees, but are quite primitive compared to most races

The Plains Hunters: Tonarai (based on lions) - Mostly Tribal

-Large Size (Think wookie in Feline form/Togorians in Star Wars) (dex penalty?)
-Strong (Str Bonus)
-Medium Speed
-Lowlight vision
-Least Smart (int penalty, males have wis penalty as well?)
-Males develop large beautiful manes
-Females are the main hunters, live in packs
-Camoflague bonus in tall plains grass
-Males who do not lead a pack (non-Alpha males) cut their manes, look more like females but darker in colour
-Tracking ability, acute sight/smell
-Claws?

Favoured Class: Barbarian (Rage fits them, prone to anger)

Main Diet: Large Grazing Herbivores

The Forest Hunters: Kesrai (Tiger Like) - Tribal Mostly

-Medium Size
-Normal Speed
-Dexterous (Dex Bonus?)
-Stalkers/Hunters
-Acute Sight
-Sensitive Whiskers (Like the Santarai, ie. noticing approaching animals etc)
-Lowlight vision
-Not amazingly smart (penalty or at least no bonus)
-Sabretoothed species (Use to latch onto prey, as climbing hooks or as a slash attack)
-Claws?
-Scary Looking (Cha Penalty)
-Loner Species (Rarely hunt together)

Favoured Class: Fighters

Diet: Grazers, Large Beasts ie: Elephants etc.

The Civilised Kesrai Descendants: Karai - Live in Cities & VIllages

-Normal Size/Speed
-Smart, Devious (Wis or Int Bonus?)
-Dexterous (Dex bonus)
-No claws, amazing work with their hands (Create things of beauty etc)
-Norm Str (no penalty/bonus)
-Visible but smaller canines (bite attack possible but not like sabretooth?)
-Acute Sight & Whiskers (touch sense use the air to notice appraoching creatures etc)
-More rarely spend time on 4 legs, mostly 2 legged creatures
-Highly evolved philosophical basis to culture, rarely found in a combat situation, very peaceful but will defend themselves ferociously

Favoured class: Monk?

Diet: Omnivores, Cook their meat usually (not always)

*These next two species split off a LONG time before, seperated on another continent*

Forest Hunters: Jare' (Jar-ay) (Leopard Like) - Mostly Tribal

-Smart Hunters (Wis Bonus?)
-Dexterous (Dex Bonus)
-Not Strong (Str Penalty)
-Darkvision (night hunters)
-Jump Ability
-Poisonous Bite? (Bite attack?)
-Good Climbers - Comfortable in the Trees (usually eat kills in the trees) - Claw attack?
-Tail has a white tip, which it raises, subconciously mainly, when not hunting. A sign to prey species that they are safe
-Semi-Chameleon Ability: Can change colour over 10seconds or so, helps in hunting and also used to communicate emotions, sexual readiness, health etc to others of the species.
*Non Jare can learn to understand their emotional states by reading their colour, but when on the hunt the scheme changes completely - hunting colours*

Favoured Class: Ranger

Diet: Birds, Small Mammals, Small Grazing Animals (Young Deer etc)

Civilised offshoot of The Jare': The Jasu'e (Ja-su-ae) - Mostly live in villages or Cities

-Very Smart (Int bonus)
-Weak (Str penalty)
-Dexderous (Small Dex Bonus)
-Ability to Jump
-Moderate climbers (small climbing claws, gripping pads)
-Lowlight vision
-Known for their knowledge, seek knowledge often
-Highly evolved chameleon ability - Mostly used for intricate expression of emotional and mental states, intricate language, can communicate just through changes in skin colour. Also used for hiding, since they are often distrusted by other species, Will hide instead of fighting (not very good fighters)

Favoured Class: Wizard?

Diet: Omivores, rarely eat meat

----------------------------------------------

I have all these ideas in my head but not much experience with turning them into usable species. Im trying to make the two civilised species (The Jasu'e and the Karai) LA+0 but the others i dont mind being higher LA's. I see the two civilised species as having lost many of their species natural abilities in favour of being smarter in order to live in greater society.

While i put favoured classes in for all of them, the tribal species are rarely seen in greater society. Mostly they stick to their tribes/tribe-like societies (hard to distinguish from animal since some dont even build homes) but there are the few who join greater society. While some are not so smart, they are not completely stupid. All could function in greater society if adapted to it, some just better than others. For instance the Kesrai and Tonarai have srong hunting instincts and especially Tonarai would be prone to outbursts of anger.

Im developing cultures for these species, although some will have overarching basic cultures to lots of smaller tribes existing in the world. They are the main population of non "humanoid" creatures which exist in my world.

Anyway if anyone could give me a hand turning them into usable species with stats i would be really really thankful. The balancing thing seems so daunting to me at the moment but id love to have these species in my world coz i think it would really give the world its own twist.

Thanks guys, any input at all is appreciated!

Marc

Okay to account for their ability to run on all fours I'd give all speicies a virtual Run feat ie they run faster when on all fours.

The Pounce ability might also be fun for the hunters amongst this species - perhaps allow these creatures to choose 'pounce' as a feat


The Tree Hunters: Santarai (similar to Margay, a type of cat) - Mostly Tribal


Size Small
Dex +4 Str -2 Cha +2 (cha covers both beauy and craftiness - think bluff)
Land Speed 30
Climb Speed 30 (Excelent Climbers)
Darklight vision (night hunters)
Bonus Feat: Alertness
Camoflague Bonus Hide +2 in the Trees
Bonus feat: Track


Favoured Class: Rogue

Main Diet: Birds

This species make small tribal communities in the trees, but are quite primitive compared to most races

The Plains Hunters: Tonarai (based on lions) - Mostly Tribal

Large Size

Females Str + 2, Int -2 Males Str +4 Int -2 Wis -2
Spd 30
Lowlight vision
Camoflague bonus Hide +2 in tall plains grass
Bonus Feat: Scent
LA +1


Favoured Class: Barbarian (Rage fits them, prone to anger)

Main Diet: Large Grazing Herbivores

The Forest Hunters: Kesrai (Tiger Like) - Tribal Mostly


Dex +4 Cha -2
Move Silently +2 Spot +2
Bonus Feat: Alertness
Lowlight vision
Bite 1d6
Claws 1d6
Intimidate +4


Favoured Class: Fighters

Diet: Grazers, Large Beasts ie: Elephants etc.

The Civilised Kesrai Descendants: Karai - Live in Cities & VIllages

-Normal Size/Speed

Int +2 Dex +2
Craft skill +2
Bite Attack 1d4
Bonus Feat Alertness


Favoured class: Monk?

Diet: Omnivores, Cook their meat usually (not always)



Forest Hunters: Jare' (Jar-ay) (Leopard Like) - Mostly Tribal


Wis + 2 Dex +2 Str -2
Darkvision (night hunters)
Jump +2 Climb +4
Bite attack 1d4
Claw Attack 1d4 - always armed
Semi-Chameleon Ability: + 4 bonus to Hide for 1 round, can be used to communicate (ie counts as a bonus language)



Favoured Class: Ranger

Diet: Birds, Small Mammals, Small Grazing Animals (Young Deer etc)

Civilised offshoot of The Jare': The Jasu'e (Ja-su-ae) - Mostly live in villages or Cities


Int +4 Str -4 Dex +2
Jump + 2 Climb +2 Knowledge is always a class skills
Lowlight vision
Chameleon ability - + 4 bonus to Hide, can be used to communicate (ie counts as a bonus language)

Favoured Class: Wizard?

Diet: Omivores, rarely eat meat

Hey Tonguez!
thanks so much for that its really appreciated!

Couple of questions about balancing, The Karai have positive bonuses but no penalties to theier stats, does that outbalance them? (although they dont have much in the way of other attributes does that make up for it?)

Also id like to give the Jare' a bonus to move silently (would that take into account the camoflague working to help them when moving as well?)

They are night hunters so any penalties you can think of which would give them both ups and downs?

Lastly, for the first one, the Santarai maybe i should change rogue to ranger? is it possible to have both rogue and ranger as favoured class?

thanks so much for your help its relaly really appreciated! Relaly helping me to get this game on the roll!

Thanks again!

Marc

 

[Tonguez]

The Karai have positive bonuses but no penalties to theier stats, does that outbalance them? (although they dont have much in the way of other attributes does that make up for it?)

Yes I did consider the lack of penalties, but on consideration decided that they still seemed ballanced overall. Afterall their only other abilities are Alertness, the Bite attack and possibly the virtual Run Feat (since Craft skill is really a non-ability)

Also id like to give the Jare' a bonus to move silently (would that take into account the camoflague working to help them when moving as well?) They are night hunters so any penalties you can think of which would give them both ups and downs?

Move silently +2 seems fine to me. Perhaps daylight blindness could be used to balance things (Jare' take a -4 penalty to Spot, Search and other skills requiring sight during daylight hours)

Lastly, for the first one, the Santarai maybe i should change rogue to ranger? is it possible to have both rogue and ranger as favoured class?

You can have both, however that might push it to LA +1 (having two base speeds is a major advantage). Infact add a claw attack 1d4 and make it LA +1 anyway

 

[Brother Richard]

My Thought-Overpowered

Its all great, perfect LA+1 races not LA +0

 

[Jurble]

Hey Brother Richard, you think all of them come out as LA+1?

I like the Santarai idea (Bot ranger and rogue & both, push it to LA +1 (having two base speeds is a major advantage). add a claw attack 1d4 and make it LA +1 anyway)

For the Jare' the day blindness doesnt really seem to fit them so well, adding move silently, any ideas for other compensations which would fit a feline based species? Im thinking maybe a con penalty coz Cats are not as durable a species as dogs? Any ideas would be great but i like them having great eyesight (of course if it totally unbalances therm getting rid of it would be the best)

Thanks for all the input guys any more is more than welcome!

Marc

 

[Brother Richard]

I uphold to what I said

I definately think their all La+1. Think about it. First off there should never be an LA+0 race with a total of stat bonuses. Also, if you're going to do it, it soesn't help to give good abilities.

 

[Jurble]

Hey all i got an email from a close mate of mine with some suggestions/questions for me which id like to put towards you guys to see what you think

An itneresting thing he pointed out (which i had forgotten) is the difference between a large creature with a 5ft reach (LA+0) and one with a 10ft reach (LA+1)

To work out which is more suitable for my Tonarai, i have to ask which you guys would think a Wookie would fall under?



He suggested:

"either make the Tonarai Large (5feet reach) or Powerful
build if you want to keep it under LA+1 or give it 10 feet reach and also
give it a larger STR and CON bonus to suit. bigger musle bigger bang, more
meat to cut through the hardier the creature."

Now i think the tonarai would def class as a LA+1 species coz they are supposed to be more dangerous than your average character species. That said, the most important thing to me is to preserve the idea of them and to keep them balanced (as an LA+1 species) so im interested in what you guys think about this suggestion.

Another thing he pointed out im interested in your opinions on:

Just as a ref you may or may not have seen this table but from Montrous
Manual, (I'll just show the relevant ones it goes from fine to colossal

Small -> Medium (+4STR -2DEX +2CON -1 AC, -1 attk bonus
Medium -> Large (+8STR, -2DEX, +4CON, +2 natural armour, -1AC, -1 attack
bonus

now obviously your not going to have PC with +12 STR but this is a good
guide for distributing artibues between your small and large sub species.

Anyway what do you guys think of this stuff? Im by no means wanting to push this species, i dont think they are underpowered for an LA+1 species (to be honest im a shocking judge of that) the main thing im concerned with is having them balanced (at whatever LA level is appropriate)

anyway basically what im asking is what do you guys think?

tnx!

M

 

[Phasics]

To make all 6 subraces have a good amount of flavour ebtween them I think some of them will need to be LA+1 even LA+2.

However I think these 3 make for good LA+0 classes that PC can play. Although the third Large Tonari need some work.

Basically the first two share many of the same abilites but have differences based on cultural divergence.

Karai I would consider to be the human equiv for comparing the subraces.

As far as the atributes go I tired to maintain the fair swapping found on pg 173 of the DMG
in some cases I've given an extra -2 just to allow so room to move on skills and feats.


The Civilised Kesrai Descendants: Karai - Live in Cities & Villages (BASE RACE)

-Medium Size
Speed 30

As Kesrai abilities score with following adjustments
+2DEX -2CON

The have the natural agility (+2DEX) of their feline ancestry which also results in a lean build (-2CON)
Becoming civilized has come at a price. These Cats no longer have many of the keen senses of their hunter cousins. They have however developed their aptitude for learning and craft substantially. The no longer posses any claws and their saber teeth are considerable smaller resulting in a more human shaped mouth however they are still a visibly prominent feature in the mouth. (The no longer get a natural attack)

Skills:
Karai gets a +2 on any INT skill check

Feats
Weapon Focus: Claw Bracer 1d4 (Arms and Armour pg 6)

Although they have a highly evolved philosophical basis to culture and are rarely found in a combat situation they will defend themselves ferociously using Claw bracers which they have developed to replace the loss of their claws. The braces are light weight and fit comfortably under clothing as such are worn by most Karai. The claws can manually be extended forward through a slide and locking mechanism. There are many forms of these bracer from ceremonial to combat oriented

Favored Class: ANY (When determining whether a multiclass karai takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count)

Diet: Omnivores, Commonly Cook their Meat





The Forest Hunters: Kesrai (Tiger Like) - Tribal Mostly

-Medium Size
-Normal Speed 30feet

+2DEX -2CON -2 INT, +2WIS, -2CHA

The have the natural agility (+2DEX) of their feline ancestry which also results in a lean build (-2CON) . Unlike their civilized cousins the Kesrai have little interest in art craft and trade (-2 INT) however they are acutely aware of their surroundings and have a great understanding of the land and their connection to it (+2 WIS). Being Tribal they prefer to keep to themselves with reaction of indifference to borderline hostile to outsiders who in their mind do not understand the land as they do (-2 CHA). The are mentally and physically closer to their Big Cat ancestors then the Karai. This is often a point of friction between the two races.

Skills: (Stalkers/Hunters/Acute Sight/Sensitive Whiskers)
Move Silently (DEX) +2
Hide (DEX) +2
Spot (WIS) +2
Listen (WIS) +2

Feats:
Blindfight

Natural Weapon:
Claw/Bite 1d4 (provokes attack of opportunity as per normal unarmed strike)
Due to the heightened senses of smell, hearing, and any the ability to sense vibrations in the air through their whiskers these creature act as it they have the blind fight feat as they do not rely primarily on sight. Although they have a natural attack, when attacking unarmed they still provoke an attack of opportunity when attacking an armed foe.

Abilites:
Lowlight vision
Grapple note: May use DEX mod instead of STR when performing a grapple (evolutionary adaptation enable them to take down larger stronger prey especially when working in a pack). Also get +1 to grapple checks due to enlarged saber teeth and small claws

Normally hunt in tribal packs, however there are several rituals that involve solo hunts “coming of age” “leadship” etc. Some also choose to live as a lone wolf choosing pure nature over the tribe.

Favoured Class: Ranger
Diet: Grazers, Large Beasts ie: Elephants etc.





You had some male female diffences here I guess they could be done for other races as well

The Plains Hunters: Tonarai (based on lions) - Mostly Tribal
females
+2STR -2DEX -2INT +2WIS -2CHA
males
+2STR -2DEX +2CON -2INT -2CHA

-Large Size (5 feet reach)
Less nimble than their Kesrai relatives although share many of the same senses bonuses.
-Medium Speed (30 Feet)
-Lowlight vision
-Males develop large beautiful manes do to their roles as protectors and not hunter their senses are not as keen as females of their species but they have greater endurance for battle (+2CON).
-Females are the main hunters also have a better sense of their surroundings however have less endurance than males (+2WIS), live in packs

Skills
Hide +2 (when in tall plains grass)
Move Silently +2 (when in tall plains grass)
Spot +2
Listen +2

-Males who do not lead a pack (non-Alpha males) cut their manes, look more like females but darker in color

- Natural Weapon:
Claw/Bite 1d6

Feats: (these are more placeholders at the moment with an extra -2 CHA not needed to balance to LA+0 attributes there room to play with some racial abilities/feats. Of course if you were going o make one of these races LA+1 this would be the best one cos then you can add more STR (e.g. +4) and CON (e.g. +2) and really make them stand out
Males
Toughness Feat (+3 HP)
In keeping with their endurance motif
Females
Improved Grapple (WARNING THIS MAY BE A BIT MUCH SINCE LARGE GETS BONSU TO GRAPPLE ALREADY)
(hunting skill due their increased size mean they instinctive know how to pin prey utilizing their size as an advantage without being wounded in the process allowing pack mates to attack the helpless victim)

Abilites:
Lowlight vision
Favoured Class: Barbarian (Rage fits them, prone to anger)
Main Diet: Large Grazing Herbivores (angry cows interesting )

 

[Jurble]

So i think i should put down what i think would fit for these species in terms of LA.

For each im "seeing" a difference in terms of how dangerous a totally untrained one should be. Working from there it should be easier to balance them. Still i love some of the ideas thrown out which ill mention as well.

Santarai - Tree Hunters - (Similar to Marguays in conception)
LA+1, dangerous because they are natural hunters, being able to kill your average human usually, althuogh they are smaller

Ideas i really liked

Feats:
Blindfight/Alertness <-- Ok so i think what im looking for here is like half way in between (lol). I mean +2 spot/listen kinda hits since the whiskers are sensitive to air movement. That said in a blindfight situation, that would help the creature work out where the opponent is, but i think blindfight is to powerful and is more than the abilities they gain

Tonarai - Plains Hunters (think wookie but feline)
Definately LA+1 or even LA+2

Big dangerous creatures, the kings of the plains, sitting at the top of the food chain. Can rip a mans limbs off (like a wookie! ). Females are the main hunters even though males are stronger. Usually only fight against other males or to protect the tribe

This one is similar in idea to the Togorians from star wars

Ideas i really liked:
Stat variations as: Females Str + 2, Int -2 Males Str +4 Int -2 Wis -2
Also -2 Cha could be useful to balance them out, and it fits coz these are some pretty scary looking creatures!

Lowlight vision
Camoflague bonus Hide +2 in tall plains grass
+2 Move Silently
Bonus Feat: Scent

**Large size (5 or 10 ft reach? not sure which fits a wookie sized creature)**



Kesrai - Tiger like forest hunters
LA+1 or Maybe +2.
Medium sized, but natural hunters well equipped with claws and large sabre teeth. A fearsome creature in the wild

Ideas i really liked:
Dex +4 Cha -2
Move Silently +2 Spot +2

Lowlight vision
Bite 1d6
Claws 1d6
Intimidate +4

Feats:
Blindfight/Alertness <-- Ok so i think what im looking for here is like half way in between (lol). I mean +2 spot/listen kinda hits since the whiskers are sensitive to air movement. That said in a blindfight situation, that would help the creature work out where the opponent is, but i think blindfight is to powerful and is more than the abilities they gain

**Cool in theory but if a balancing problem not necessary:**

Grapple note: May use DEX mod instead of STR when performing a grapple (evolutionary adaptation enable them to take down larger stronger prey especially when working in a pack). Also get +1 to grapple checks due to enlarged saber teeth and small claws

Karai - Civilised descendants of the Kesrai
LA+0, much closer to normal spceies in terms of natural abilities

Ideas i really liked:

Feats
Weapon Focus: Claw Bracer 1d4 (Arms and Armour pg 6)

Although they have a highly evolved philosophical basis to culture and are rarely found in a combat situation they will defend themselves ferociously using Claw bracers which they have developed to replace the loss of their claws. The braces are light weight and fit comfortably under clothing as such are worn by most Karai. The claws can manually be extended forward through a slide and locking mechanism. There are many forms of these bracer from ceremonial to combat oriented

This could be a cool cultural feature, i dont know about having the proficiency as a species ability though, since one brought up in another culture would not know how to use them, hence wouldnt have the proficiency

Jare' - Leopard like Forest Hunters
LA+0/LA+1
Natural hunters but not nearly as lethal as the Kesrai or the Tonarai

Jas'ue - Civilised descendants of the Jare'
LA+0/possibly +1
no major natural fighting abilities but some features left over from their efvolution give them an advantage (the chameleon ability)

Anyway they are some of the things ive been thinking so far, im going to try and compilate what i like out of what you guys have posted and then see if you guys can help me balance them

Thanks a ton guys!

M

 

[Bront]

Check out my Katara. Might be interesting for you.

 

[Jurble]

Check out my Katara. Might be interesting for you.

Hey thanks, they are really cool! Might even look into using them in our campaign, they seem like they be alot of fun to play. One thing im definately far from mastering is the whole negative aspects of races, so i like the wandering mind feature. Also for feline species in general the Keen Ears, Natural Grace and Incredible Leap features are awesome!

One thing im have alto of trouble with is accounting for this whisker feature using existing racial feats. They are another sense or at least an extension of the touch sense. Small changes in air flow will alert the Santarai or the Kesrai to prey nearby. I dont think blindflight fits but awareness (+2 listen/spot) is also kinda vaguely related.

Any obscure feats which may account for these features? id love to know if you come across one (im searching the SRD and some other stuff i have as we speak)

thanks Bront, they are way cool

M