Please help me understand my players.

[Speaks With Stone]

I'll preface by saying that I've run many adventures and campaigns in the past with this crew. I've been a player in their games as well and some of us talk probably more than we should about what we want from a game. Prior to starting the current game, I was informed that the players wanted action, a little RP, but not too much (as the last one I ran was heavy RP).

Based on that info, I informed the players that I didn't want us muddling around in moral relativism, so while most people in town aren't necessarily angels, I was going to make the bad guys clearly bad so we could keep things moving.

Now we have only had 4 nights of play so far, but the trend has been for the players to make every NPC encounter very complex. The rogue in the party has clearly stated that he wants to manipulate situations to maximum advantage. To that end he pushes NPCs pretty hard in most conversations, trying to get that extra edge. When NPCs respond poorly to this, the entire party sees the lack of cooperation as an indication that the NPC is evil/lying/or out to get his butt kicked. This has lead the party to distrust pretty much everyone they have encountered except for their employer and the NPCs that they invented in their own backgrounds.

I find this frustrating as every NPC encounter (in the city!) tends to end up with the players deciding to investigate the NPC for other bad acts they can use against him. They also distrust nearly every clue they get, as they don't trust any source.

Add to this the players will investigate something and make a gather info check. I tell them what they learn. They then start going down a list of other people they will question to get the same general info including: bums on the street, next door neighbors, NPCs from their backgrounds, and any one else who seems to be walking by. All of this in preparation of speaking to someone they have a clear indication they should speak to. Again, a lot of this, I think, has to do with the rogue wanting to be able to manipulate the situation so he want more info before he gets there.

Furthermore, the players have had a tendency in the process of gathering so much information secondary to their mission, they are losing track of vital clues and frequently they are following a tangent of their own making to the detriment of their mission. I mean after investigating the sister (in case they needed leverage) of the store keeper as well as keeping tabs on the store keeper's familiar, and asking all of the nearby shop keepers about the store keeper, they sometimes forget that they were just supposed to talk to the guy. (Last night, they were attacked. Found an address in the pocket of one of the dead guys that attacked. They pocketed it and forgot about it, while they healed one of the other guys and spent an elaborate evening around getting this guy out of town, rented a boat and rowed out to sea, revived him with threat of drowning, got some info they felt was not very useful, so they drowned him. They get back to town and are trying to figure out how to investigate the back trail of their attackers. Finally, I had an NPC suggest that when stuck, go back over everything you've FOUND out. They finally remembered the address.)

They also have tended towards passive solutions. They finally find this cult's lair, they break in to the abandoned building and then instead of investigating the basement, they decide to camp in the building and ambush the first bad guy that enters the place. They essentially camped on the doorstep of the dungeon crawl (granted they didn't know that the basement led to bigger stuff, but that's primarily because they weren't paying attention to the clues they had been given).

The kicker to all of this is that while none of the things they are doing is entirely unreasonable, it's not very exciting. And the players are clearly frustrated that they aren't learning as much as they'd like and they aren't kicking as much tail as they'd like. I'm not having as much fun as I'm trying to provide a simple situation with a lot of back story and ambience, but a lot of action.

My questions are: Should I scrap the city setting and get these characters out in the woods where things are simpler?

If I keep the city setting (and the rest of the planned stuff), how do I encourage the players to keep moving? I've always likened a good game to the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and my players are well aware of the high adventure feel I'm after. I've told them that the campaign is not contingent on them outsmarting all of the bad guys, but is somewhat reliant on them engaging the bad guys.

I guess I'm looking for ideas to make things move more quickly. I realize that a city setting encourages a certain level of suspicion, asking lots of questions, and so on. So if I have to evict them from the city, I can (I just hate having to change venue on night 5). Oh, did I mention that after night 2, I got feedback from players, that they felt they were in over their heads with an encounter with some low level demons (1/2 CR, 3 of them). So I changed the story line to de-emphasize the demon stuff and bought a module that was easily modified to my setting. I hate to keep changing the game to fit the players, but I also want to have fun while DMing.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

My questions are: Should I scrap the city setting and get these characters out in the woods where things are simpler?

Cast haste on your campeign and double step it to the woods!

*chuckle* You got some group- they don't want that much rp, but then they are forcing a lot of it.

got some info they felt was not very useful, so they drowned him.

Wow. Are the pc's evil? This seems pretty high on the evil list.

If I keep the city setting (and the rest of the planned stuff), how do I encourage the players to keep moving?

There should be consequences for their behavior- they are murdering and bullying their way through the city at low level?

Ha. There must be some powerful people in this city? A ruler? A wizard guild? A thief guild? One of the people they bully could have a relative to one of the powers of the city- and then it hits the fan.

The pc's are informed to straighten out or spend some time in irons. Or they could just be turned into indentured servants to some power for the murder.

I hate to keep changing the game to fit the players, but I also want to have fun while DMing.

I wish you luck- it sounds like quite the pickle of a situation.

SD

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

This sounds like a mystery type of adventure, am I right? A lot of players have trouble with mysteries- they tend to overcomplicate things and don't follow the right clues. Gamers are creative people, and nowhere is that creativity more evident than when they're trying to puzzle out a plot. The "solution" they'll come up with will be far better than anything the DM ever thought of...

What are these modules, anyhow? They sound a lot like the Freeport series.

I'm curious as to how your last game went, especially with regards to RP. It seems like this one is heavy on the RP also, but that everyone is going in different directions with the RP. You mentioned the players wanting more action, that could be why they're attacking everything in sight. Also, there's intrigue. The lack of an overt threat really makes players paranoid, because there's far more chance they'll loose their characters if they can't prepare for the encounter beforehand. Try giving them something obvious to channel their energies on. It seems that the dungeon you had ready was to be that, but they stumbled around it. Sometimes a little GM fiat is needed- for example if during the battle with the one NPC that came out, someone crashed through the floor and found the entrance to the dungeon, then they would know where to explore.

It sounds like the rogue is responsible for a lot of this "extra rp". You may need to tell the character to tone it down somewhat- especially if it's clear that the rest of the group is getting tired of it. Also, don't be afraid to tell them that something doesn't matter, or that they find nothing of interest. It's true that every person in the city is going to be an individual, and have their own story, but if the players aren't able to focus on what's important then try to help them. After they meet the twentieth shopkeeper called "Bob" who has no family or outside influences, then they may get the hint that the person is not worth investigating.

It does sound the like the group isn't really wanting to go the same way as you. I would definately consider moving the game to the wilderness- ask the players what they think, or what they'd like to have happen. Chances are they don't really have any idea where to proceed in the current plot and would be better off with a dungeon in the wilderness and a base town full of nice, normal NPCs with no particular backgrounds.

All this is if you want to be nice (and I assume you do). If you want to be mean, try to whip them back into shape:

1. They can't go around town and antagonize everyone they meet. Eventually, people are going to start to talk, and some might form groups and complain to the NPC patron, local sheriff, etc. This could result in the loss of the job, which could get them out of town. At the very least, people will not be willing to deal with them and they may find themselves refused services at various places- especially if their inn rooms keep getting trashed by attacks every night.

2. This "investigating" sounds an awful lot like spying on people, breaking into their homes, and other illegal activities. They could get caught doing some of this- especially the rogue. How law & order is handled varies by the campaign, of course. If someone spends some time in jail, it might be useful to have an NPC (such as a kindly old cleric on ministerial duty) interview them and find out where they strayed. They could then explain everything they've been doing, and you the GM, through the NPC, could explain why they don't need to spy one and intimidate every single bootblack who has the misfortune to cross their paths.

3. Drowning? I have to say I'm with Sagan on this one. Unless this was some sort of deranged cultist (and it doesn't sound that way), then I would count this as evil. That body, dumped overboard, could easily wash up somewhere. And it doesn't take a lot of divine magic to speak with dead and find out who killed him. This is an option to come down a lot harder on the PCs, legally speaking. It could also be a way to get them out of the city, on a ship to a penal colony. Prisonbreaks can be fun. I've always wanted to cross one with the Ravenloft adventure, "Night of the Walking Dead"....

4. Raymond Chandler once said "When things get slow, have two guys come through the door with guns". You tried this already, but weren't mean enough. In the PI novels Chandler was talking about, the detective gets the crap kicked out of him on a fairly regular basis. Next time the cultists attack, have them barely leave the pcs alive. This will encourage them to find the cult more quickly (ie ignore inconsequential NPCs) or get out of town- either way, problem solved. From the sound of things, it's not as if the party should be too hard to track down, since they antagonize everyone they meet. I'd be willing the bet the cult can figure out which members can do what, also, and can plan their tactics accordingly.

Like I said, these are the "evil" options for when the PCs finally cross the line. You're probably better off just seeing if they want to go to the wilderness or not. Or, if they want to continue, hand them everything on a silver platter- they'll probably just be convince that all their "hard work" has finally paid off. Also, don't be afraid to retcon things, as long as you don't let the players know. If they come up with something close to solving the mystery, tweak a few of the details to fit with their story, and they'll never know the difference.

 

[Speaks With Stone]

Yeah, they just finished the Death in Freeport module. I picked those books up after feedback suggested that my homebrew wasn't working so hot.

They did get in there and finally beat up all the bad guys, walked off with all the loot, and then copped some attitude with the clergy that was entering the temple and looking into the evil books and such. The rogue wanted to sell everything in the temple to the clergy and the clergy suggested that while they don't care about the treasure chests the characters walked off with, they weren't going to let them have the evil books. The players pushed some more, so the clergy suggested a magistrate sort things out.

The rogue wanted access to the evil books so he could get them back to his employer who is investigating evil cults - but on the sly. I had to have her tell the characters to back off because she didn't want problems with the temple. It's pretty easy for the clergy to realize who they are working for at this point, but I don't think they would be terribly concerned, yet. More importantly, the characters have come off as a bit crass to the clergy and especially to the top dog, Thuron. This could make things a little more difficult for the other Freeport modules.

The characters are Neutral, Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Good. The Chaotic Good player was not present for the drowning incident. I agree it was evil, but for the moment a single evil act does not an evil character make. Though I have mentioned to the players that I don't want them turning evil - so tread carefully.

The speak with dead spell is a good idea. I'll keep that in mind for when I'm ready to run them out of town. There are a lot of dead bodies that could reveal some of the players crimes quite easily. Don't want to use this until I'm ready to run them off or they'll become even more paranoid, which is not the goal.

Yeah, they were looking for Lucius, but only sort of. They spent almost as much time hiring hookers (and arguing over prices) as they spent checking out their initial leads. If you are familiar with Freeport, then I'm sure you know that the mystery isn't that hard to follow - the bad guys bring you all of the clues and I had Enzo spill every bean he ever may have possessed in order to get them to the right place.

I can get them out in the wild, I just hate having wasted money on the next two freeport modules, but perhaps I should consider that lost already if the players aren't clicking with it. Having chucked the initial planned stuff, I'm reluctant to chuck the modules.

This reminds me most horribly of a campaign I ran many years ago, dubbed "The Baddies Campaign." I let everyone make an evil character and I had a huge campaign based on them being within a dead demon lord's castle with lots of planar gates and so on. The evil characters couldn't agree on anything and never rose above petty evil acts - they pretty much terrorized whatever NPC showed up regardless of who they were. Soon they abandoned the castle (and the adventure) to become bandits. They tried that for 2 weeks and then decided they wanted to wreak havoc on a large city. They did that for a few weeks and I shipped them out on a ship, moved them to a new continent and set things up for them to join a mercenary army to give them direction. They saw the army and decided to avoid it and go find a city to terrorize. I quit the campaign at that point. After coming up with 4 plot lines all to be abandoned on whim, I gave up. I sort of see a bit of this creeping in and I don't like it.

I haven't decided to move this campaign into plot line 3 yet, but maybe. I just don't like the trend.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Yeah, that is a tough one- especially since those adventures do have npc betrayels throughout them.

My suggestion is to rewrite parts of the second one- get rid of the npc-trick and replace it with a chase scene. Heck, I would change the entire trap in that adventure since I think it is way too difficult for that level.

The third adventure should be better.

Good luck!

SD

 

[LostSoul]

My advice? Run with it. The Players are handing you the ball, take it. Normally, games run the other way (the DM hands the Players the ball), but here it's the other way around.

So what do you do? Don't have anything written down in stone. Forget about "the mission". React to the PC's actions. When they decide to investigate something that's not on the right trail, come up with something that either connects back to the trail, or something completely different. If the PCs are gathering information in a bar, and they grab onto something, use that as the adventure hook. Maybe the barkeep is seeing a mistress. Make her a Succubus! Then have the PCs encounter her and fight her minions. Drop some plot hooks that you even you don't know where they will lead.

When they go looking for information, give it to them. Take the "drowning" incident. The NPC they took out to sea with them could easily have given them the same information the address note had. It wouldn't have affected the game much if they discovered what they needed to this way.

You might want to show up to the game, appearing prepared, but without any but the shortest of notes. Try running totally off the cuff and see what happens.

 

[Speaks With Stone]

Lost Soul, that is a very intriguing suggestion. I'm not sure if I'm up for that at the moment, but crafting the plot around the PCs is an interesting concept. Sure, you always have to move the plot a little here and there to make a good fit, but . .. hmm.

Over the weekend, I re-read the next Freeport module and dang. I forgot just how complex that was. The first module was simple, but I'd be insane to use the module as written for this set of PCs. It's given me a chance to weave a lot of my original plot into the freeport module, while minimizing (nigh unto elimination) the mystery solving. I have an NPC or two that needed to gain teh players trust, so I'm going to have them solve the puzzles and point the players in the right direction. We will probably fly through these next 2 freeport modules as a result, but I will blend things back into the original plot line from there.

I have no idea how things will progress, but as the tangents crop up, I'll just have to relink it back to the main adventure better. I also have to stop getting frustrated when the players ignore the clues and craft situations where the adventure can continue regardless of the clues.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[Pigeon]

I agree with the whole run with it argument.

Some of my best gaming sessions have resulted from when something a player says or does changes the direction of a game:
Player: "I bet there is some kind of magician controlling that dragon"
GM: "Hmmm"
The players think that they have been very clever and worked out your feindish plot, and you get a story line that the players really feel involved with.

 

[The Great Sage]

Hmm...you could just run it on the fly like Lostsoul suggested...or you could do this.

The PCs have some nice NPCs in their background, yes? Well before the next game, ask the players to multiply their WIS by 5.

Now sometime during the session, just after the PCs have done something evil, call out for them all the roll a D100. If they fail (you have their sanity scores after all) tell them that they now suffer some form of echopraxia. Now introduce a "friendly" NPC to point them back to the plot hooks.

If this short episode of temporty insanity still hasn't quashed their independant nature, have something really nasty happen to one of their close NPCs. Something along the lines of:
- when they visit them next, all they find are small drips of blood, leading to the backstreets.
- having visions of their loved ones performing debased rituals (dare I say in front of a monolith in thick swamp land? )


It seems to me that your players are being a bit surley, what with all the drowning of innocents and such. Give them a taste of their own medicene ie- a beating. That should straighten them out.

 

[Speaks With Stone]

Well, since I last posted we have run several game nights without a hitch. I basically decided that the real problem was a miscommunication between player and GM more than anything else. The rogue has recognized that he was letting his Machivellian (sp?) personality run too much amok, especially considering the other two characters are being run very passively - so there is no real check on the rogues' suggestions. They both sort of signed on board for the low RP idea, while the rogue went real far the other direction and was basically dragging them along his tangents.

The rogue is still pretty much driving all party decisions as the player tends to be fairly forceful of personality and while one of the other players can be fairly strong willed, he has specifically made a character who is a follower. I've found that I can control him through his familiar, because the character readily admits that the familiar is smarter than he is-while not necessarily being true - he belives it.

But like I said, the rogue is toning it down some and trying to play the style he wants without being so evil. He's still the manipulator, but he's following the plot hooks and engaging the adventure.

We were out of the city last week and things went much better. I plan on getting them out of town on a more permanent basis in the near future. We are nearing the end of the modules and I'm going to get back into some more home brew stuff related to the original adventure I had planned.

Thanks for the help and comments.

As to just rolling with the players and constructing the adventure around them, that's a lot like what my last few campaigns were like. I normally set up a hot bed of activity, give the characters connections/motivations to investigate different things and then just see where they take it. That probably contributed to the problems in this one as the style was different - though a difference that was asked for and pointed out from the get go.

Thanks again.