Please help with ECL

[reanjr]

Please help me estimate ECL of the following race:

Size: Tiny

Attribute Modifiers
---------
-4 STR
-2 INT
-2 WIS
+6 DEX
-4 CON

Skill Modifiers (ignoring effect of Tiny)
---------
Listen: +2, Spot: +2

Racial Abilities
---------
Wild Empathy (as Ranger)
Low Light Vision
SR: 10
Winged Flight, 40 ft. (Good)
Change Self (at will)
Type is Fey
Prefered Class: Sorcerer

Elite array:
Str 13
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8

Modified to:
Str: 9 (-1)
Dex: 21 (+5)
Con: 10 (0)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 8 (-1)
Cha: 8 (-1)

Make him a Rogue 1
AC: 20 (Studded leather)
BAB: +0
Melee: +1 (Size)
Missile: +5 (Size, Dex)
HP: 6

Compare to Elven Rogue 3 (if he were LA +2)
AC: 15 (Studded leather)
BAB: +2
Melee: +3 (Str)
Missile: +5 (Dex)
HP: 16

Compare to Elven Rogue 4 (if he were LA +3)
AC: 15 (Studded leather)
BAB: +3
Melee: +4 (Str)
Missile: +6 (Dex)
HP: 20

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The elves outclass him in melee easily, but missile combat they are about evenly matched. They both also have a good reserve of HP compared to the little guy, but that would close up alot at higher levels. They fey is significantly harder to hit (25%), but he causes 2 points less in damage due to the size of his weapon (most likely).

All of them would have Point Blank Shot, presumably

The elves each will have an additional feat (probably Precise Shot, the fey would probably take Far Shot first)

The elves would also have an additional +1d6 sneak attack and evasion.

Meanwhile, our fey would be able to fly. He could use hit and run tactics to great effect from a far distance (where the spot DC would be very difficult to make on him due to his much higher hide) and his speed which outclasses the elves. Get at -6 penalty distance (hurting the elves alot more due to the things highers AC; they'd need a 20 to hit, he'd need 16, hitting 5 times as often). If they tried to close, he could easily keep distance (and get an extra hit in from time to time).

Add to that his ability to change his form at will (alter self I suppose is what you meant, not change self), makes him much more versatile. He can fly and also gains the ability to change shape to something that has a burrow speed, a swim speed, or a climb speed. He can change to a Diminutive creature which allows him to escape any normal kind of bonds and also sneak in places no one else can. (And gives him an additional +4 AC if he is trying to get away).

And to make up for his slight shortfallings at earlier levels, he is immune to many low-level magical effects (charm person) and has spell resistance that a low-level caster could overcome only a little over half the time.

The more I look at this, the more I believe it's a +3 LA (before I was just tempted to think it might be).

 

[Korak]

Make him a Rogue 1
AC: 20 (Studded leather)
BAB: +0
Melee: +1 (Size)
Missile: +5 (Size, Dex)
HP: 6

The more I look at this, the more I believe it's a +3 LA (before I was just tempted to think it might be).

6hp... SR 10

Compare to Human Wizard 4... even factoring in SR, one magic missle spell has 61% chance of killing the Fey Rogue. A second one virtually guarantees it. Whereas 2 magic missle spells have less than a 1% chance to kill the 20hp human rogue 4, and a single spell has 0 chance to. That is why LA+3 is ludicrous. -4con is enormous. I wouldn't even play it at LA+2 unless the con penalty was lowered to -2. I do agree though that it is a bit too powerful to be LA+1, but I would absolutely offer a PC the opportunity to buy back one levels worth of LA because while it is strong at levels1-6, it becomes very weak at high level. Rather be a human sorceror 20 or a MadeUpFairy sorceror 18?

 

[reanjr]

6hp... SR 10

Compare to Human Wizard 4... even factoring in SR, one magic missle spell has 61% chance of killing the Fey Rogue. A second one virtually guarantees it. Whereas 2 magic missle spells have less than a 1% chance to kill the 20hp human rogue 4, and a single spell has 0 chance to. That is why LA+3 is ludicrous. -4con is enormous. I wouldn't even play it at LA+2 unless the con penalty was lowered to -2. I do agree though that it is a bit too powerful to be LA+1, but I would absolutely offer a PC the opportunity to buy back one levels worth of LA because while it is strong at levels1-6, it becomes very weak at high level. Rather be a human sorceror 20 or a MadeUpFairy sorceror 18?

Oh, I know that the thing could easily be killed by the right type of foes (namely spellcasters). I was just comparing its effectiveness as an archer which is what the race seems absolutely made for. I really think the thing should be given 2 racial hit dice and a +2 LA. That would lower the LA to a reasonable level while avoiding some of the problem points of such a low level character having alter self, flight and SR. I would also make the SR 10+1/2 hit dice to keep the abilities consitent at later levels.

I also wonder as to the motivation behind creating this race. It doesn't seem at all like the fey presented in the MM. By looking at them, you can pretty much come up with a rule that if fey have modifiers, it's negative to Str, and positive to anything else. And they should almost always have a positive mod to Cha. It seems like this race is being tailor made for some purpose, and that almost always leads to balance problems (both too good in some ways and too weak in others).

The thing doesn't seem to have any character as far ability mods go, either. What about this race causes those mods? Why the negative to Con? Int? Wis? What kind of race is this? It doesn't seem to fill a role, unless you need to fill the niche of low-level flying race. But then the low ability scores are contrived to lower the LA.

 

[Aaron2]

They fey is significantly harder to hit (25%), but he causes 2 points less in damage due to the size of his weapon (most likely).

Wouldn't the damage be 1d4-1 for the fey versus 1d8+1 for the elf? That's 1.75 vs 5.5 or a 68% reduction in damage.

Add to that his ability to change his form at will (alter self I suppose is what you meant, not change self), makes him much more versatile. He can fly and also gains the ability to change shape to something that has a burrow speed, a swim speed, or a climb speed. He can change to a Diminutive creature which allows him to escape any normal kind of bonds and also sneak in places no one else can. (And gives him an additional +4 AC if he is trying to get away).

Change Self (in 3.0) is a first level illusion spell that only changes appearance. I agree that Alter Self at will would be nice; even the weakened 3.5 version.


Aaron

 

[Celebrim]

Comparing your Fey archer against a 4th level Elven rogue, I find that it takes the Fey archer roughly 14 shots to defeat the Elf. The Elven archer can defeat the Fey in roughly 8 shots, and can possibly do it as soon as the first shot. Also, I think most PC elfs would go straight for Rapid Shot, which lets the Elf dispatch the Fey in 5 rounds rather than 8 (and makes him much better against low AC opponents).

I know that head to head combat isn't the best way to compare characters, but I do think it indicates that there is a wide variaty of situations in which the Elf is heavily advantaged against the Fey. Most particularly, against average challenges that a 4th level party would expect to face, the Elf does a better job. In particular, you are failing to note that the Fey has 32 skill points to the Elf's 63 - a difference of 31 skill points! As the skilled member of the party, this is a significant problem. Plus the Elf has significantly better saving throws across the board. In fact, without SR, the Fey has no real chance of surviving against most 2nd level attack spells. And the Elf is a creditable melee fighter if need be, and has a threat zone (which is very important if your a rogue in a party). Without Flight, the Fey doesn't have a chance because the first thing that it fights that has improved grab is going to be the end of it. Plus the Elf can carry out more treasure and carry in more equipment than the Fey. I don't think its much of a contest, the Elf is clearly superior and is clearly superior at 3rd level as well. It's closer at 18th versus 20th level, but its still pretty close because the flight and SR become alot less important.

"Change Self (in 3.0) is a first level illusion spell that only changes appearance. I agree that Alter Self at will would be nice; even the weakened 3.5 version."

Exactly. I'm trying to get the LA as low as possible. I'd accept +1, but +0 is really what I'm going for. Alter Self adds to many additional situations to the list of those that the Fey beats the elf. I mean Change Self as per 3.0 rules, not the much more powerful Alter Self.

"I also wonder as to the motivation behind creating this race. It doesn't seem at all like the fey presented in the MM."

It's not. The fey presented in the MM are monsters. As such, the DM has loaded them up with goodies to make them challenges for the PC's. This fey is intended to be a playable character race, which means that as a DM you have to be real careful with the goodies.

"By looking at them, you can pretty much come up with a rule that if fey have modifiers, it's negative to Str, and positive to anything else."

Which is kinda silly if you ask me. This things are the size of a house cat. Anything that small should have a negative CON modifier simply because of weight (smaller doses of poison needed to kill, less resistance to damage, (fur aside) less resistance to temperature change, smaller fat reserves, ect.).

"And they should almost always have a positive mod to Cha."

Why? Think Tinkerbell here.

"It seems like this race is being tailor made for some purpose, and that almost always leads to balance problems."

The reason for the race is to fit a unique cosmology for my world. It's not being tailor made to fit any sort of role in a party (archer, spellcaster, rogue, etc). It's being tailor made to fit a role in a mythology. Arguably, all the races except humon in the core books are tailor made for some role and are almost always played in conjuction with a particular class. That's why humans are so popular (as they should be) in 3rd edition.

"The thing doesn't seem to have any character as far ability mods go, either. What about this race causes those mods? Why the negative to Con? Int? Wis? What kind of race is this?"

It's a _tiny_ race. Tiny size means lower strength and lower constitution. While brain size isn't directly related to intelligence, below a certain size you can't encephalize enough to have high intelligence. Small creatures simply don't have room for alot of abstract thought. They need most of thier brains to control thier bodies. Think Tinkerbell again. She's so small (she's actually Diminutive) that she only has room for 'one thought at a time'. So lower Int and Wis.

I'm sorry if my realism disturbs you, but I run a fairly gritty campaign.

"But then the low ability scores are contrived to lower the LA."

Well, yes, they are. But you might as well say that the Flight and SR are contrived to raise the LA. Noone is going to play a net -6 race without something big in return. As I said before, the role is designed to fit the cosomology not completely to meet some player need. I need seven races that are basically balanced with each other and have particular attributes and Halflings and Gnomes are both removed for reasons of personal preference. The 'eternal child' of the Fey is one of them.

 

[Aaron2]

I'm trying to get the LA as low as possible. I'd accept +1, but +0 is really what I'm going for.

You'll never get to +0 since tinkerbell would be a pretty sweet sorceress, what with the flying and SR. I could see a 1 HD racial class. That'll put her one level behind sorcerers but, since its a fey HD, it'll give her 6 skill points and +2 Reflex and +2 Will.


Aaron

 

[argo]

Exactly. I'm trying to get the LA as low as possible. I'd accept +1, but +0 is really what I'm going for. Alter Self adds to many additional situations to the list of those that the Fey beats the elf. I mean Change Self as per 3.0 rules, not the much more powerful Alter Self.

No way you are going to get a flying race with LA 0. Yes, yes I know other characters can cast fly or buy a magic item. Doesn't matter. This is always-on flying that uses neither daily powers nor cash resources and is not vulneurable to dispel magic etc.

It's a _tiny_ race. Tiny size means lower strength and lower constitution. While brain size isn't directly related to intelligence, below a certain size you can't encephalize enough to have high intelligence. Small creatures simply don't have room for alot of abstract thought. They need most of thier brains to control thier bodies. Think Tinkerbell again. She's so small (she's actually Diminutive) that she only has room for 'one thought at a time'. So lower Int and Wis.

I'm sorry if my realism disturbs you, but I run a fairly gritty campaign.

You are right abut Str and, to a lesser extent, Con (though -4 is prety steep) but you are wrong about Int. As near as we can tell inteligence is a function of the structures of the brain (lizard brain vs mamal brain) as well as the ratio of brain size to body mass. You are correct about needing to use a % of your brain to control your body but if your brain is proportionally large compared to your body you will still be capable of Inteligent thought. Assuming that this creature is supposed to be vaguely humanoid-shaped they should "realistically" not be penalized for "small bain size" even when taking into account having to devote extra processor cycles to making the wings work.

Honestly, when I first looked at the mental stat mods I assumed that the Wis penalty was to represent them being all flighty and carefree and reckless fey-ish while the Int penalty was to represent them being simple and childlike and living-in-the-moment fey-ish. Not because they were small! I mean, do giants in your setting get Int bonuses?


I understand what you are trying to do. You want something to represent a concept in your setting and you think there ought to be no reason why you can't represent that idea with a LA 0 race right? I mean it should just be a matter of stacking up the penalties until they equal the bonuses and that should be LA 0 shouldnt' it? Unfortunaetly d20 doesn't work that way. The system rewards specilization more than it penalizes a lack of breadth and it is the nature of LA races to be natural specalists meaning that we balance their LA against the worst-case scenario of somebody using them in their specality rather than working across it. This race will be a halfway decent sneak attacker, an excellent scout and a kick-ass sorcerer. Trust me, I know. I played in a game with a Spryte Runethane and she had no trouble standing on equal footing with the rest of the party.

And I don't think that you will ever get it down to LA 0 either. Stacking more and more panalties usually doesn't make a race more balanced, only more lopsided as their capacity in one area remains undiminished while they become less and less capable in everything else. Personally I would recomend you drop either the Int or Wis penalty and reduce the Con penalty to -2 and call it a LA +2. If you then trust your players you could go ahead and let them have it at LA +1 and not stress yourself over the party balance too much. Your other option could be to take a look at the Spryte from AU and either steal it or use it as a foundation for your own fey. Raical levels have a different balance than LA and help offset some of the more irritating problems of LA, particularly the HP issue.

Hope that helps.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

2 or maybe 1