Please rate the Archmage

[Merlion]

I'm sorry that wasnt neccsarily worded well. I think when they are designing products they arent giving as much attention as they used to wether a certain thing can be abused especialy via combinations(such as the Spell Power +6 Spell Penetration Greater Spell Penetration Spell Focus Greater Spell focus deal someone mentioned). I think they are addressing things like haste because of complaints and feedback about it. And I think many things in the revisions are aimed less at "broken" overpowered things and more at unclear items..and in fact it seems that the revisions to the classes will actualy involve giving them more features and making them more "powerful" rather than the reverse.
I remember that in 2nd edition..and I could be wrong about this but I seem to remember...that there were passages actualy in the rules speaking against min/maxing etc. and I seem to remember...although I dont recall which designer it was or in what forum..basicaly saying that with 3e they were no longer going to try and fight min/maxing but rather imbrace it and simmply come up with a system that was equally suited to all play styles.
I just dont believe spell power is "broken" because it can ALLOW you to get a +6 to your DCs. It doesnt automaticaly give you that...you have to choose that particular sequence of abilities. Some players are going to do that..for various reasons. Some arent, for various reasons. if a player decides to create an ArchMage Red Wizard with spell power +12(or however high it is you can get it with the 2) on his school of choice, then are those prestige classes broken because that CAN BE DONE with them...or is that character broken and constructed purely to be as powerful as possible with little or no consideration to anything else? If in your campaign an Archmage being able to achieve a +6 bonuses to save DCs doesnt work then only allow spell Power to be taken twice. or once. or eleminate that from the list of High Arcana. But dont say the class is "unbalanced" "broken" or "badly designed" because it doesnt fit in with your play style on a mechanics level, and/or because players can choose to use it to create munckin characters.

 

[Merlion]

What I mean is that your personal choices as to character concept and planning are irrelevant to the discussion currently going on, which asks, "is the Archmage prestige class, as written in the FRCS, a balanced prestige class?"

Well to that I say, so are all the spell power+6 munckin archmage/redwizards or whatever that everyone else has mentioned.

yes I did report you...is there for lack of a better word a way to unreport? you just..really upset me with the last portions of that message...I know I am not always as articulate as I'd like to be but I dont like having it held against me..

 

[TwoSix]

I remember that in 2nd edition..and I could be wrong about this but I seem to remember...that there were passages actualy in the rules speaking against min/maxing etc. and I seem to remember...although I dont recall which designer it was or in what forum..basicaly saying that with 3e they were no longer going to try and fight min/maxing but rather imbrace it and simmply come up with a system that was equally suited to all play styles.

That's very true. 2e had a lot of unbalanced and broken rules. The 2e mantra for dealing with these rules was "Well, if you aren't a munchkin and don't power game, they won't be an issue."

In 3e, the designers did say min/maxing wasn't discouraged, and that the game would support all play styles. That's because the rule set they created was designed to not be breakable like 2e, but would rather allow any sort of character you could imagine and not allow any one type of race or class combination to outshine any other on a consistent basis.

So when a class comes along that breaks that rule, and disrupts a style of play, whether that type of style be roleplay-heavy, puzzle-heavy, or even munchkiny min/maxing, we as a roleplaying community are allowed to express our belief that the principles behind the ruleset have been disrupted. Because that class doesn't affect just your game, or my game, but every game, simply because it exists in a supplement released by the compnay that is supposed to be the arbiter and the maintainer of the principles of that ruleset.

 

[Merlion]

And we come to the other thing this conversation boils down to...opnion. Many dont believe it violates the rules set. and many dont believe its "broken" or that disruptive to a game even when it is min/maxed as evidenced by their posts.
And since their are similiarly "broken" prestige classes and what not for most character types, it seems that that standard is being maintained.

 

[Caliban]

I'm sorry that wasnt neccsarily worded well. I think when they are designing products they arent giving as much attention as they used to wether a certain thing can be abused especialy via combinations(such as the Spell Power +6 Spell Penetration Greater Spell Penetration Spell Focus Greater Spell focus deal someone mentioned). I think they are addressing things like haste because of complaints and feedback about it. And I think many things in the revisions are aimed less at "broken" overpowered things and more at unclear items..and in fact it seems that the revisions to the classes will actualy involve giving them more features and making them more "powerful" rather than the reverse.

Several things in the revision are aimed specifically to fix broken abilities or overpowered spells. Other are specifically to fix underpowered classes (bard, ranger, monk).

I was at the Judges meeting at Winter Fantasy where representatives from WOTC discussed the upcoming changes with us.

In many ways, 3rd edition is designed with powergamers in mind. It is expected that every group will include one or two powergamers, and the system is supposed to allow them to be powerful, but to still be challenged by opponents of the appropriate level. When an ability can be powergamed to the point where you consistently aren't challenged even by villians well above your level, then it's out of balance and needs to be brought back into line.

In my opinion, the Spell Power ability meets that criteria. It's not about a broken prestige class, it's about a specific type of ability.

I remember that in 2nd edition..and I could be wrong about this but I seem to remember...that there were passages actualy in the rules speaking against min/maxing etc. and I seem to remember...although I dont recall which designer it was or in what forum..basicaly saying that with 3e they were no longer going to try and fight min/maxing but rather imbrace it and simmply come up with a system that was equally suited to all play styles.

That is the goal. But the system isn't perfect, and some things allow you to powergame to the point where it's not challenging. That's the type of thing the game designers hope to address in 3.5.

I just dont believe spell power is "broken" because it can ALLOW you to get a +6 to your DCs. It doesnt automaticaly give you that...you have to choose that particular sequence of abilities.

Well, if you have spell power, you automatically have +6 to your DCs, and +6 to your caster level when overcoming spell resistance. Automatically, without fail, on every single spell you cast.

The point is that you shouldn't be allowed to get your DC's that high, that easily. It makes the game less fun for the DM, and for the other players.

Some people like easy victories, and like having the game revolve around their character. They think that spell power is just fine.

Some players are going to do that..for various reasons. Some arent, for various reasons. if a player decides to create an ArchMage Red Wizard with spell power +12(or however high it is you can get it with the 2) on his school of choice, then are those prestige classes broken because that CAN BE DONE with them...or is that character broken and constructed purely to be as powerful as possible with little or no consideration to anything else? If in your campaign an Archmage being able to achieve a +6 bonuses to save DCs doesnt work then only allow spell Power to be taken twice. or once. or eleminate that from the list of High Arcana. But dont say the class is "unbalanced" "broken" or "badly designed" because it doesnt fit in with your play style on a mechanics level, and/or because players can choose to use it to create munckin characters.

No one is saying that the Archmage class itself is broken. Just that the Spell Power ability is. You seem to keep overlooking that.

 

[Caliban]

And we come to the other thing this conversation boils down to...opnion.

Having played the character with the ultra-high DC's and DM'd that type of character, this isn't an opinion, it's a fact: They make the game less fun for everyone else.

It's only when every single character and every single NPC are powergamed to the same level that balance is restored. If the all the PC's and the DM play with exactly the same style of powergaming, there's no problem.

It's when you have just one or two players who do this (which is usually the case) that it becomes unbalanced and unfun for everyone else involved.

Many dont believe it violates the rules set. and many dont believe its "broken" or that disruptive to a game even when it is min/maxed as evidenced by their posts.

Define "many". I only see two or three on this thread. I see several more who disagree.

And since their are similiarly "broken" prestige classes and what not for most character types, it seems that that standard is being maintained.

Once again, it's not a prestige class, it's a specific ability that's the problem. Why do you keep saying that it's the prestige class?

 

[Merlion]

Well your definitly right in that you and I have been having somewhat different conversations. I've tried to concentrate on the class as a whole without singling out any particular ability. However many posters HAVE said that the archmage class is broken or seem to have. If you think Spellpower is overdone thats entirly your perugative...and theres also pretty easy fixes for it...limiting how many times you can take it etc.
And of course also the overcoming way out of your league enemies thing is also linked to the whole challenge rating system is messed up and related issues thing which I just dont feel like getting into right now personaly.
Sadly I've never gotten to go to any sort of gaming convention or anything. Hopefuly some day when finances improve. It would be nice getting things straight from the designers, face to face(more or less) as oposed to trying to remember who said what in what online article.

 

[Simulacrum]

you guys only see what a munchkin *COULD* do with a PrC and its features, but fail to see the big picture. I mean for real, an Archmage Redwizard who did only take Spellpower, spellfoci etc..
that mage is a joke. For starters: he is a Red that means he starts with 3 feats gone for item creation etc... then to max the PrC classes out he has to be what--> a 20 level character?
And you tell me this guy isnt going to match against CR 18 creatures with all sort of super immunities and spells and custom magic items all the time?? *lol* you must be joking
Now just in case you guys didnt notice: this guy is never going to happen ever. In a true game with a clever DM this guy is going nowhere and will die some horrible death, because a) he completely predictable all the time and can only rely on his blasting power (remember that guy has to drop 3 schools of magic in most cases) and believe me there are many spells missing that you just take so easy for granted in your assumptions.
and b) its obvious that this mage was just *build* by some munchkin and not played for real.
c) he has only 10 feats all in all, that makes it hell difficult to step up at first. Lets see: Tattoo Focus, Spell Focus + GSF, 3 Item creation feats or Metamagic, Spellfocus (prerequ), Skill Focus (prerequ)
...oh wait did you notice? It doesnt work out that well too, he cant take the Archmage prestige class on avaibility....ooops.
This means he has to delay even further that makes him a 22 lvl caster suddenly mhhhh.

No really this is all abstract bla bla and so far from reality that it gets silly to debate over it.
DC's of 39 are IMPOSSIBLE to come by (for non reds it is impossible completely), and of no use after all, because you look like a dork and have no flexibility and no true choices.
Also those super wizards have to invest millions for their magic items and books, now why shouldnt the enemies have the same? Or more likely-> much bigger recources?

 

[Simulacrum]

NOTE:: I think allready in 3.5 e terms so --> No haste, virtually no save or die spells anymore, hopefully no weirdo abuse spells anymore, better descritpions on the spells and worked over versions of the too popular cheaptrick buff spells.

 

[Caliban]

you guys only see what a munchkin *COULD* do with a PrC and its features, but fail to see the big picture. I mean for real, an Archmage Redwizard who did only take Spellpower, spellfoci etc..
that mage is a joke.

I think only one person has talked about a Red Wizard/Archmage.

Most of this thread has been about just the Archmage, and the Spell Power ability of the Archmage in particular.

For starters: he is a Red that means he starts with 3 feats gone for item creation etc... then to max the PrC classes out he has to be what--> a 20 level character?
And you tell me this guy isnt going to match against CR 18 creatures with all sort of super immunities and spells and custom magic items all the time?? *lol* you must be joking

Now just in case you guys didnt notice: this guy is never going to happen ever.

You really don't know what you are talking about. Just to humor you:

The red wizard requires 3 item creation or metamagic feats. Scribe scroll is an item creation feat, and at 5th level the wizard get's a bonus item creation or metamagic feat, so he only has to spend one of his regular feats on an item creation/metamagic feat, and one on Tattoo Focus.

Human Red Wizard/Archmage build:

Specialist: Necromancy
Barred School: Enchantment

1) Item Creation: Scribe Scroll (From wizard class)
1) Tatoo Focus (Bonus Human feat)
1) Spellcasting Prodigy (1st level feat)
3) Metamagic: Extend Spell
5) Item Creation: Craft Wondrous Items (From Wizard class)

He now qualifies for Red Wizard.
New Barred School: Divination

6) Spell Focus (Necromancy)
9) Skill Focus (spellcraft)
10) Metamagic: Persistant Spell (Bonus Red Wizard feat)
12) Spell Focus (Evocation)

He now meets the feat requirements for Archmage, and take it at 16th level.

15) Metamagic: Empower Spell
18) Greater Spell Focus: (Necromancy)

That build gives 10 levels of Red Wizard, 5 levels of Archmage, and only two barred schools.

In a true game with a clever DM this guy is going nowwhere and will die some horrible death, because a) he completely predictable all the time and can only rely on his blasting power (remember that guy has to drop 3 schools of magic) and believe me there are many spells missing that you just take so easy for granted in your assumptions.

The example I showed you above only had to drop two schools of magic, leaving him with a full range of defensive and offensive spells. He also has access to divination spells of 3rd level or less, acquired before he became a Red Wizard. Not having True Sight hurts, but you can get magic items to make up for that. The Charm school is a good school, but you aren't significantly weaker due to it's lack, and the 8th level Mind Blank spell makes enemy spellcasters practically immune to the entire school anyway.

The Red Wizard/Archmage example is just as effective as an evoker or other specialist who had to give up two schools of magic.

and b) its obvious that this mage was just *build* by some munchkin and not played for real.

I wouldn't actually play a Red Wizard (I prefer to play heroes), but nothing stops a DM from creating one as an NPC, and the build I showed above is a perfectly viable PC, even at low levels. (Some people might swap out spellcasting Prodigy and Greater Spell focus so they can get more metamagic feats, but you get the point.)

c) he has only 10 feats all in all, that makes it hell difficult to step up at first. Lets see: Tattoo Focus, Spell Focus + GSF, 3 Item creation feats or Metamagic, Spellfocus (prerequ), Skill Focus (prerequ)
...oh wait did you notice? It doesnt work out that well too, he cant take the Archmage prestige class on avaibility....ooops.
This means he has to delay even further that makes him a 22 lvl caster suddenly mhhhh.

Check your math.

You are forgetting his Scribe Scroll feat for being a 1st level wizard. It works actually works out pretty well, and you have no trouble qualifying for archmage in time.

No really this is all abstract bla bla and so far from reality that it gets silly to debate over it.
DC's of 39 are IMPOSSIBLE to come by, and of no use after all, because you look like a jerk and have no flexibility and no true choices.

Let's see, assuming an 18 Intelligence, and tossing all stat bumps into Int, this gives us:

10 (Base Save DC)
+6 (22 Int after 4 stat increases)
+3 (Headband of Intellect +6, or an Empowered Foxes Cunning)
+1 (Spellcasting Prodigy gives +2 to effective Intelligence)
+2 (Spell Focus: Necromancy) or Spell Focus (Evocation)
+2 (Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy)
+1 (Tatoo Focus: Necromancy)
+5 Spell Power (from 10 levels of Red Wizard)
+6 Spell Power (first 3 levels of Archmage)
-------------------------------------------------------

DC 36 base save for Necromancy spells.
DC 33 base save for Evocation spells.
DC 31 base save for other schools.

+12 to his effective caster level for overcoming Spell Resistance (which means that he ignores an SR of 31 or less at 18th level.)

a 9th level Necromancy spell (Wail of the Banshee) will have a save DC of 45. Unless you have more than a +25 will save, you are dead on anything other than a Natural 20.

A 9th level Evocation spell (Meteor Swarm, will have a DC of 42.

Remove Spell Power from the equation, and his DC's drop to 34 and 31. Still damn good, but not completely overpowering. Now he will actually have to try and hit your bad saves, instead of killing you even with your best save.

Also those super wizards have to invest millions for their magic items and books, now why shouldnt the enemies have the same, or more likely much bigger recources?

No magic items at all are required for the DC's I showed above (if you assume the Empowered Fox's Cunning. And the DC's can go even higher if you assume a triple empowered Fox's Cunning [up to a +10 bonus to Int]). If you assume the +6 headband of Intellect, he spent 36,000 gp on it. And with his two item creation feats, he can create most other items he needs at half price.

Is the character predictable? No more so than any other specialist wizard.

Is he boring to play? Hell yes.