Please rate the Archmage

[Simulacrum]

The problem with counterspelling is that you need to have the exact same spell prepared to do it, or use a dispel magic variant, which isn't that certain to work. Improved counterspelling requires a spell from the same school that is HIGHER level. Meaning I'll just throw 9th level spells at you. No counterspelling those, unless you've got the same thing prepped.

There is absolutely no problem with counterspelling because a) even when you dont have the right spell or school at hand you can simply Greater Dispel it. b) every time you DO cs, its an outomatic attack against the enemy with his own weapons and believe me, out of my own experience most people are absolute unprepared to eat their own bullets. c) you simply lose initiative and can just wait what happens each round.

Just admit that you are wrong with cs mastery being not worth it, because it is. All mages are equal when it comes down to dispel & countering, exept those with cs mastery and those weirdos who can boost their caster level checks somehow.

In a true game eye for an eye, and without meta prep. a mage/sorc with the whole lot of counter feats and cs mastery is going to be a big surprise and very deadly for anyone.
Believe me I tested that someting like 20 times and noone out of my players considers to take spellpower anymore if they would / are playing a mage.

The greatest bonus after all comes from reactive cs because it allows you to do potentialy both /defense and offense in the same round. A spellpowermage cant do that and is going to lose bad.

 

[Simulacrum]

Not that I dont see the problem of high DC's but on high levels there are so many things that make your virtualy immune to most stuff and other handy tricks to even the score again. for example I told my players from the start that they should always go for a maximization of their saves as this is far more important than anything else in the game if you realy want to stay long enough to see those wizards tossing those nice DC 39 spell in your direction. And honestly none of my PC or NPC breaks a sweat in higher levels on any save that cant be done with an avarage save bonus of +32. In worst cases it gets 50/50.

From my knwoledge those *smash and burn* mages with all their feats and burned up just for spellpower etc...they dont have any staying power really. (I always calculated haste out of this because it is a joke and it wouldnt be fair judgement to the system)
In a true and challenging campaign such ueber mages turn out to be pretty inefficient and burn out way too fast.

 

[Numion]

From my knwoledge those *smash and burn* mages with all their feats and burned up just for spellpower etc...they dont have any staying power really. (I always calculated haste out of this because it is a joke and it wouldnt be fair judgement to the system)
In a true and challenging campaign such ueber mages turn out to be pretty inefficient and burn out way too fast.

You don't have many straight wizards, then, if archmages with spell power are just "burned out"? Because thats what a straight core class wizard is: an archmage without the spell powers

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The hierophant looks a lot less powerful than an Archmage to me - doesn't it lose caster levels?

Spellpower isnt that bad really. Its scary for DM's and players who dont take the +2 to save feats and dont buy rings of resistance.

Not every opponent is a class member. Some are creatures. I think you meant Cloak of Resistance which won't stack with a Ring, if such a thing exists.

And finaly even spellpower +120 wont do any good if the other spellcaster just dispels your spells each time you try it.

Most spellcasting monsters don't have access to Greater Dispelling. Usually your opponent spellcaster would be the same or lower level than you, so they won't be able to dispel you that often.

A good DM should always have the good old Counterspelling mastery (reactive counterspell, improved cs and focused dispel etc) ready.

You can't do this with spell-like abilities.

 

[Simulacrum]

The hierophant looks a lot less powerful than an Archmage to me - doesn't it lose caster levels?
Not every opponent is a class member. Some are creatures. I think you meant Cloak of Resistance which won't stack with a Ring, if such a thing exists.
Most spellcasting monsters don't have access to Greater Dispelling. Usually your opponent spellcaster would be the same or lower level than you, so they won't be able to dispel you that often.
You can't do this with spell-like abilities.

a) from the point a player can start having +5 spellpower most creatures should have access to virtually any spell to give that archmage a challenge. Even for a 15th lel mage who took his first level in Archmage, such encounters should be *expected*

b) most creatures in that CR category are outsiders or very nasty other monster type that 1) have tons of immunities 2) best saves possible (like a monk for outsiders ) 3) can wear nearly any magic item there is.

c) Most spellcaster can have easy accss to Greater Dispelling 1) as a scroll bought simply in the nice Red Wizards shop who are even giving you another scoll for free as a gift 2) inside a vey cheap magic item 3) can summon creatures that can cast it for them.
Also spellcaster who go the way all along counterspelling feats would be damn stupid not to take GD. It would be like taking spellpower +10 and not having a single save or die spell ready from that school.

Also most spellcasters encountered are not more than 1 or 2 levels less than that of the players so spellcasting abilitys should be equal if not stronger.

You can dispel spelllike abilities, only supernatural ab. cannot be undone.

anyway this all leads way too far from what it was all about.
I tried to show that if you compare TWO equal spellcasters who took the Archmage PrC the one who took the counterspelling way is by far more dangerous and hard to predict than the guy who just can *blast it fast*, thus giving him a big advantage in terms of who is realisticly staying longer alive in an even challenging adventure lead by an intelligent well experienced DM.

Thus proofing that CS mastery is WORTH it. (if you have Reactive CS featchain taken)
And in case such two opponents meat each other and dont know each others powers the CS master will win, I playtested that.

 

[Merlion]

Can spell like abilities be essentialy "Countered" with Dispel spells?

 

[Jemal]

I think the only actually 'over-powered' parts of the PrC are the Masteries, which (Like ANY other thing in the game) CAN be abused.

As to all the Spell power controversy... *L* you're cracking me up.

Whats that, an <Energy> ball with a Reflex save DC 40?
Too bad I've got Improved Evasion, Combat Reflexes, and a cloak of resistance +5, meaning that I need to roll a 10 or higher to save and take no damage.. And even if I do fail I take half damage and THEN apply any type resistances.
Whats that, a Dominate Person with Will save DC 40? too bad I have a Ring of Spell Turning.
What's that, Finger of Death with a Fort save DC 40? Too bad I have a Ring of Spell turning and if THAT doesn't work AND I fail my save, I have a Scarab of protection.


DO you think your DCs really matter all the time? If you've got a character who's willing to spend all his power on improving his Save DCs you've got to know there are people out there going so defensive they can't be touched by too many spells.
I find it much better to just take spells that don't allow saves, or that have effects even when the save is failed.

And too bad about Anti-magic Shell and Mords disjunction, which really F*ck up a mage.

There's no such thing as a broken class. They can be Overpowerd, but none are overly so unles you're actively TRYING to make it overpowerd

 

[Merlion]

I think the only actually 'over-powered' parts of the PrC are the Masteries, which (Like ANY other thing in the game) CAN be abused.

As to all the Spell power controversy... *L* you're cracking me up.

Whats that, an <Energy> ball with a Reflex save DC 40?
Too bad I've got Improved Evasion, Combat Reflexes, and a cloak of resistance +5, meaning that I need to roll a 10 or higher to save and take no damage.. And even if I do fail I take half damage and THEN apply any type resistances.
Whats that, a Dominate Person with Will save DC 40? too bad I have a Ring of Spell Turning.
What's that, Finger of Death with a Fort save DC 40? Too bad I have a Ring of Spell turning and if THAT doesn't work AND I fail my save, I have a Scarab of protection.


DO you think your DCs really matter all the time? If you've got a character who's willing to spend all his power on improving his Save DCs you've got to know there are people out there going so defensive they can't be touched by too many spells.
I find it much better to just take spells that don't allow saves, or that have effects even when the save is failed.

And too bad about Anti-magic Shell and Mords disjunction, which really F*ck up a mage.

There's no such thing as a broken class. They can be Overpowerd, but none are overly so unles you're actively TRYING to make it overpowerd

Amen!

 

[Caliban]

I think the only actually 'over-powered' parts of the PrC are the Masteries, which (Like ANY other thing in the game) CAN be abused.

As to all the Spell power controversy... *L* you're cracking me up.

Whats that, an <Energy> ball with a Reflex save DC 40?
Too bad I've got Improved Evasion, Combat Reflexes, and a cloak of resistance +5, meaning that I need to roll a 10 or higher to save and take no damage.. And even if I do fail I take half damage and THEN apply any type resistances.

If Reflex is your best save, then they won't hit you with Reflex.

And most characters don't have Reflex as their best save.

Whats that, a Dominate Person with Will save DC 40? too bad I have a Ring of Spell Turning.

A ring of spell turning has to be activated. What if you don't have it up?

Also, what if you don't have a ring of spell turning? Is every character supposed to have this 150,000 gp magic item, or they may as well not play?

Is every major NPC supposed to be walking around with this item?

What's that, Finger of Death with a Fort save DC 40? Too bad I have a Ring of Spell turning and if THAT doesn't work AND I fail my save, I have a Scarab of protection.

Same thing. Is every PC or NPC expected to have one of these items now?

Plus, it's only got 12 charges. It takes a Miracle or Wish to create, so they aren't laying dungeons like candy.

DO you think your DCs really matter all the time? If you've got a character who's willing to spend all his power on improving his Save DCs you've got to know there are people out there going so defensive they can't be touched by too many spells.
I find it much better to just take spells that don't allow saves, or that have effects even when the save is failed.

And too bad about Anti-magic Shell and Mords disjunction, which really F*ck up a mage.

They also mess up your little toys. And the majority of opponents and PC's won't be set up to counter this. 90% of people will be killed in the first round or two.

There's no such thing as a broken class. They can be Overpowerd, but none are overly so unles you're actively TRYING to make it overpowerd

Which is exactly what many players who take Archmage are trying to do. And you don't even have to try that hard.

Trying to say that you counter the problem with a specific set of very expensive and hard to make magic items only illustrates the point: It doesn't cost the wizard any money to get his DC's that high (other than the cost of a headband of Intellect).

It takes you a several expensive magic items and specific class abilities just to survive the first round or two.

 

[Merlion]

And your missing the point. and forgetting that, everything in the game has counters and foils.
But again the point is...every player doesnt think that way. And I believe that the designers are no longer worrying a great deal about those that do..and why should they? This isnt Magic:The Gathering. its not the job of the designers to try studiosly to avoid instant-win combos because DnD isnt a win or lose game...its not about winning or doing the most damage or having the highest save DCs or the best magic weapons. its about telling stories, and enjoying oneself. The game is designed for those who realize that...and if some people want to use it differently..."break" or abuse it as so many here say so many people do...well then thats there issue.