Please rate the Archmage
- Thread starter Merlion
- Start date
I have a character who is nearly ready to take levels in ArchMage, so I'm very thankful for the discussion here. A few points:
I think Shard might be right on with the idea of dropping maybe 2 levels of spell progression from the class. I'd most likely have taken it anyway, but it would give me more pause. Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned that fact theat the requirements to get into the class are a little rough. Spell Focus on 2 schools would not have been my first choice for feats, and there is no way in hell I would have taken Skill Focus (Spellcraft) unless I was trying to quaslify for this class. In my opinion, that's one feat burned completely and a second feat not exactly what I would have normally chosen. I also have to put quite a few ranks into skills I most likely would have skipped. That being said, it is still a very rockin PrC. But FR is a very magic centric world, and I'd be surprised to not see great mages with poweful abilities. DM's should take this into account, have enemies get good SR, maybe some Spell Turning items, maybe an Anti-Magic field going. plus, all the ideas of counterspelling are pretty sound too. I've been playing with exactly this idea, that a party would have 2 spellcasters, one to blast and one to sit back and counterspell, and the enemies should have one too. I'm looking forwad to playing the class, I just hope I don't overshadow my buddies too much
I think Shard might be right on with the idea of dropping maybe 2 levels of spell progression from the class. I'd most likely have taken it anyway, but it would give me more pause. Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned that fact theat the requirements to get into the class are a little rough. Spell Focus on 2 schools would not have been my first choice for feats, and there is no way in hell I would have taken Skill Focus (Spellcraft) unless I was trying to quaslify for this class. In my opinion, that's one feat burned completely and a second feat not exactly what I would have normally chosen. I also have to put quite a few ranks into skills I most likely would have skipped. That being said, it is still a very rockin PrC. But FR is a very magic centric world, and I'd be surprised to not see great mages with poweful abilities. DM's should take this into account, have enemies get good SR, maybe some Spell Turning items, maybe an Anti-Magic field going. plus, all the ideas of counterspelling are pretty sound too. I've been playing with exactly this idea, that a party would have 2 spellcasters, one to blast and one to sit back and counterspell, and the enemies should have one too. I'm looking forwad to playing the class, I just hope I don't overshadow my buddies too much
Merlion
First Post
Kaji said:[I'm looking forwad to playing the class, I just hope I don't overshadow my buddies too much
You wont. Not unless you decide to. thats been my point through this whole thing...ok yes there are some things that just shouldnt be allowed to PCs in non epic, relatively "normal" campaigns(like playing great gold wyrms), but in my experince as far as material published to be used by PCs...prestige classes etc...its only broken if someone decides to break it.
And actualy as has been mentioned at high levels many many monsters DO have lots of SR and extremely high saves. Spell Power gives you an advantage...but what feature of any class, prestige class, item or spell isnt ment to give its user an advantage? Just because you can create a super munckin overshadowing everyone else in the party character with a certain class or other feature...doesnt mean you have to. And just because it can be done doesnt mean everyone will do it, or that it shouldnt be published.
Numion
First Post
In 3e the main measure of characters power is supposed to be it's character level. Not it's choice of classes.
Thats why überpowerful PrC also rub me the wrong way. If you want a more powerful wizard, make it a couple of levels higher. Don't give hime über-PrC.
In an ideal world, that is.
The point here merlion is that designers should always aspire to make balanced classes; you're right that they won't necessarily be used to their full extent, but there has to be some quality. The concept levels loses it's meaning otherwise. That one is 18th level doesn't tell you much, if that 18 levels can be 18 levels of wizard or 5 wizard / 10 incantatrix / 3 archmage. It wouldn't be earthshattering or anything like that, but it would erode the basic elements of D&D.
Most of players aren't like you merlion, but are trying to find the most powerful combinations. Most players I know, anyway
Thats why überpowerful PrC also rub me the wrong way. If you want a more powerful wizard, make it a couple of levels higher. Don't give hime über-PrC.
In an ideal world, that is.
The point here merlion is that designers should always aspire to make balanced classes; you're right that they won't necessarily be used to their full extent, but there has to be some quality. The concept levels loses it's meaning otherwise. That one is 18th level doesn't tell you much, if that 18 levels can be 18 levels of wizard or 5 wizard / 10 incantatrix / 3 archmage. It wouldn't be earthshattering or anything like that, but it would erode the basic elements of D&D.
Most of players aren't like you merlion, but are trying to find the most powerful combinations. Most players I know, anyway
Merlion
First Post
Well then as to the first part, it just boils down to opnion...I think it is quality. you dont. Just dont say its badly designed because some players choose to abuse it and some DMs choose to allow them to.
Prestige classes are a semi optional rule. If its becoming a problem IMO the best way for a DM to deal with it is rule that a PC needs a valid character concept/roleplaying/in world reason for taking...well really any class but especialy a prestige class. If a player is taking Arch Mage AND Incatatrix merely to munchkinize or whatever you want to call it...dont allow THAT PLAYER to do THAT THING. Dont say the classes are badly designed, or shouldnt have been published, or ban all prestige classes(unless this is something you would do anyway.)
I believe that the designers have purposely chosen to worry a lot less about min/maxing....in some ways to almost embrace it rather than try to fight it, or at least not to make decsions based on absuability(not a real word most likely I know). I think they want to open up as many possbilities to players as they can...and if this leads some to powergaming(or whatever) well thats between each individual gaming group.
I am realizing that most players arent like me. My point is, if you dont like someones play style, dont play with them. If a character is broken, look first at the character at and the player.
Prestige classes are a semi optional rule. If its becoming a problem IMO the best way for a DM to deal with it is rule that a PC needs a valid character concept/roleplaying/in world reason for taking...well really any class but especialy a prestige class. If a player is taking Arch Mage AND Incatatrix merely to munchkinize or whatever you want to call it...dont allow THAT PLAYER to do THAT THING. Dont say the classes are badly designed, or shouldnt have been published, or ban all prestige classes(unless this is something you would do anyway.)
I believe that the designers have purposely chosen to worry a lot less about min/maxing....in some ways to almost embrace it rather than try to fight it, or at least not to make decsions based on absuability(not a real word most likely I know). I think they want to open up as many possbilities to players as they can...and if this leads some to powergaming(or whatever) well thats between each individual gaming group.
I am realizing that most players arent like me. My point is, if you dont like someones play style, dont play with them. If a character is broken, look first at the character at and the player.
Numion
First Post
So, there are no mechanically bad PrC's? Just players / DMs abusing them.. thats the another extreme. I don't know if thats what you're saying, but consider this:
Is a class that gives two ordinary (core classes) levels' worth of stuff each level broken?
Is a class that gives five ordinary (core classes) levels' worth of stuff each level broken?
All I'm saying that there is the line over which the classes are just too damn powerful. And thus badly designed. Apparently archmage isn't over the line in your opinion, but can you understand my claim that it's badly designed?
Is a class that gives two ordinary (core classes) levels' worth of stuff each level broken?
Is a class that gives five ordinary (core classes) levels' worth of stuff each level broken?
All I'm saying that there is the line over which the classes are just too damn powerful. And thus badly designed. Apparently archmage isn't over the line in your opinion, but can you understand my claim that it's badly designed?
Merlion
First Post
First let me say that none of that was intended to be harsh or anything if it came across that way. The general practices and opnions of a lot of people on thease boards just isnt what I'm used to.
Now most certainly some things are or would be to powerful...although again a lot of that is a matter of opnion and play style.
You feel that a class that can be abused in the ways that you've seen arch mage abused is badly designed. I DO understand and certainly respect that.
its just that whenever someone on here declares something to be broken, there examples are usualy drasticaly overall-broken characters. I'd like to see an example of a character with one of thease prestige classes that shows its brokenness or bad design that isnt min/maxed up and down.
Again my issue is the design part...I havent seen much in anything that I think is badly designed especialy on the two-powerful level. Now I've seen stuff that was badly designed in the sense of being extremely unclear....I do think that there are to bleeping many PrCls out there and that that has maybe taken some of the specialness of them away..a whole lot of them are rather redundant..and of course I havent taken much time to really analyze any of them beyond the level of wether I like them aestheticaly or not, addmitedly.
Do I think the designers did a bad job on the arch mage? No I dont. Do I think they could have made it harder to abuse? Yes most certainly. I personaly, totaly in my own opnion, dont think they really should worry that much about that.
Now tell me this...how or in what ways do you find the Arch Mage unbalanced or badly designed, min max potential aside? THATS what I am truly interested in since frankly and no offense ment to anyone, what the powergamers or whatever do with a thing is for me personaly irrlevant and meaningless because thats not my style of play.
And again, nothing ment to be harsh or anything Numion I am actualy enjoying this discussion much.
Now most certainly some things are or would be to powerful...although again a lot of that is a matter of opnion and play style.
You feel that a class that can be abused in the ways that you've seen arch mage abused is badly designed. I DO understand and certainly respect that.
its just that whenever someone on here declares something to be broken, there examples are usualy drasticaly overall-broken characters. I'd like to see an example of a character with one of thease prestige classes that shows its brokenness or bad design that isnt min/maxed up and down.
Again my issue is the design part...I havent seen much in anything that I think is badly designed especialy on the two-powerful level. Now I've seen stuff that was badly designed in the sense of being extremely unclear....I do think that there are to bleeping many PrCls out there and that that has maybe taken some of the specialness of them away..a whole lot of them are rather redundant..and of course I havent taken much time to really analyze any of them beyond the level of wether I like them aestheticaly or not, addmitedly.
Do I think the designers did a bad job on the arch mage? No I dont. Do I think they could have made it harder to abuse? Yes most certainly. I personaly, totaly in my own opnion, dont think they really should worry that much about that.
Now tell me this...how or in what ways do you find the Arch Mage unbalanced or badly designed, min max potential aside? THATS what I am truly interested in since frankly and no offense ment to anyone, what the powergamers or whatever do with a thing is for me personaly irrlevant and meaningless because thats not my style of play.
And again, nothing ment to be harsh or anything Numion I am actualy enjoying this discussion much.
Numion
First Post
Merlion said:
None taken! This has been one of the better discussions here..
To your question: I don't see other problems with the archmage PrC besides the Spell Power ability. Before I saw it in-game it was my favorite PrC in the FRCS (tied with the Red Wizard
). It has just the right flavor for an archmage. So... actually I see your point here. After, what, gazillion posts? But yeah, it's ok besides the spell power. Good, actually. It probably was just the player whose only objective was to kick up the DCs who turned me off ..
But anyway, I stand by my claim that some PrC's are badly designed! One of these days I'm gonna use a Red Wizard archmage NPC against them. A little payback
Merlion
First Post
Two final things. One yes spell power can be extremely...well..powerful. especialy if you spend all your high arcana on it(something I cant even imagine doing but I know many do). However I really feel that once you get into those higher levels(14, 15 16 etc) theres lots of baddies with very high saves and/or SR...so it sort of makes up for it..I personaly would think.
The Red Wizard. lets talk about the Red Wizard. Firstly, you have to be a human, from Thay. You cant be good. those two things already make it seem not very PC classish, to me. Nextly..if my realmsknowledge is right, as a RW your very very tied up with the politics and running of Thay...and your subject to the Zulkirs. it also seems like it would be a massive stigma considering large number of people in Faerun at least distrust the RWs and many, many consider them sworn enemies.
Put this all together and personaly if I was DMing...well a player would have to have a pretty darn good RP reason for taking that class, and there would be some pretty heavy RP/storyline drawbacks.
I just cant imagine wanting to be a red wizard myself..I mean there the bad guys for bleeps sake(I know there not all "technicaly" evil but still). and..the Simbul!!! Theres more than enough reason right there not to become a Red Wizard sheesh...
back to spell power briefly...rule that it doesnt stack. or say, you cant take this ability more than twice, or something simliar.
I think that covers it for now...
The Red Wizard. lets talk about the Red Wizard. Firstly, you have to be a human, from Thay. You cant be good. those two things already make it seem not very PC classish, to me. Nextly..if my realmsknowledge is right, as a RW your very very tied up with the politics and running of Thay...and your subject to the Zulkirs. it also seems like it would be a massive stigma considering large number of people in Faerun at least distrust the RWs and many, many consider them sworn enemies.
Put this all together and personaly if I was DMing...well a player would have to have a pretty darn good RP reason for taking that class, and there would be some pretty heavy RP/storyline drawbacks.
I just cant imagine wanting to be a red wizard myself..I mean there the bad guys for bleeps sake(I know there not all "technicaly" evil but still). and..the Simbul!!! Theres more than enough reason right there not to become a Red Wizard sheesh...
back to spell power briefly...rule that it doesnt stack. or say, you cant take this ability more than twice, or something simliar.
I think that covers it for now...
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Actually, Merlion, practically every min/max build I've seen using archmage takes the full whack of spell power +1/+2/+3. I know, I didn't think it was that great an ability when I first saw it in print, but these boards have convinced me otherwise.
I happen to like the archmage because I feel that the abilities have some serious character and pizzazz, and spice up a high-level wizard's abilities a bit. That said, I've some nerfs to the archmage that I'd like to share.
1) Spell power: Only one kind of spell power (spell power +2) is available; it costs a 9th-level slot, and may only be taken once. I also apply the once-only rule to the Hierophant PrC. This is to curb the power of these PrCs at epic levels.
2) Mastery of elements: I'm fine with this one, to tell the truth. Spending an 8th-level slot to get around elemental immunities is fine by me. I do not allow sonic substitution in general, though; the sonic Energy Substitution feat is not available IMC.
3) Mastery of shaping: I'm looking for a way to nerf this one so as to prevent some of the nastier applications (Mord's disjunction being the most obvious). Any suggestions?
BTW, one thing to keep in mind about sorcerer archmages is that the additional spell capacity that they have to burn on high arcana is balanced by the increased difficulty in meeting this class's prereqs as a sorcerer. It's one reason why I prefer the FRCS archmage to Sean's version.
I happen to like the archmage because I feel that the abilities have some serious character and pizzazz, and spice up a high-level wizard's abilities a bit. That said, I've some nerfs to the archmage that I'd like to share.
1) Spell power: Only one kind of spell power (spell power +2) is available; it costs a 9th-level slot, and may only be taken once. I also apply the once-only rule to the Hierophant PrC. This is to curb the power of these PrCs at epic levels.
2) Mastery of elements: I'm fine with this one, to tell the truth. Spending an 8th-level slot to get around elemental immunities is fine by me. I do not allow sonic substitution in general, though; the sonic Energy Substitution feat is not available IMC.
3) Mastery of shaping: I'm looking for a way to nerf this one so as to prevent some of the nastier applications (Mord's disjunction being the most obvious). Any suggestions?
BTW, one thing to keep in mind about sorcerer archmages is that the additional spell capacity that they have to burn on high arcana is balanced by the increased difficulty in meeting this class's prereqs as a sorcerer. It's one reason why I prefer the FRCS archmage to Sean's version.
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