Please rate the Loremaster

[Tar-Edhel]

I think Loremaster would get much higher ratings if the pic in the DMG was anything other than the pregnant chick with glasses.

She applied first to be the Drunken Master's picture but the designers felt she wouldn't convey the right feeling

Rude comment there, smetzger. The problem is not with 'the pregnant chick with glasses'. The picture is simply boring, uninspiring and the book on a stick is kinda ridiculous. They would have put her beside a desk filled with strange grimoire (anyone remembers the 1st edition Unearthed arcana's cover? That was a sexy picture for a loremaster), there might have been more appeal to the PrC.

I know it's probably not what you meant but the way you said it was rather blunt. And I'm neither a chick nor pregnant (obviously )

 

[Endur]

No Downside that I can see

No major downside that I can see for the Loremaster class if you are a Wizard. The only downsides I see are that some other PRCs are more powerful: Archmage, Elemental Savant, and some of the ones from Magic of Faerun.

I wouldn't be in a rush to join Loremaster; I'd wait until after I got my level 10 metamagic feat, so that it only costs me one feat (the skill focus feat) to get into the PRC.

4 skill points, better skill list, and the Bardic Lore ability (based off int) are the real gems of this class. The secrets are just gravy.

Tom

 

[bret]

But, this class is absolutely better than the core class in every way, and to me that's a big no-no. It's not even a question of flavor. The ideal PrC, to me, would be specialized. The Loremaster seems to have been intended for Diviners, but it didn't carry through to the abilities.

I disagree, there are costs to being a Loremaster.

• The feat requirements. You use up a lot of your low level feats in order to get into this class early.
  
• Lack of Familiar Advancement. For a class that is concentrating on the ability to gain information, having a familiar that can listen in to conversations and scout is great.
  
• The spell cost. Any wizard who isn't a diviner is going to be paying for those spells. Unless you are in a campaign that has fixed the cost to scribe a spell into a wizard's spellbook, this is a big cost.
  
• The requirement to put 10 ranks in two skills. Even with a high Int, in order to get into the class as quickly as possible it is likely that you've made sacrifices in order to have the required ranks at level 7 so you can start Loremaster at level 8. As a wizard, you only have your Int Modifier and maybe race modifier to buy other skills with.

When you just build a high level character from scratch, only the lack of familiar advancement is likely to be a problem. It is when you work your character up until they qualify that you really see the costs.

 

[Li Shenron]

BALANCE:

If you look at the class as intended to be taken by a Wizard, it is very easy to notice it is overall better, since the +1 spellcasting level is almost all the Wizard get from advancing: same HD, same BAB, same ST, same spells; +2 sp/level and a much longer skill list, 2 bonus languages, 8 extra abilities in exchange for 2 bonus feats and familiar advancement is a neat improvement. Even better for Sorcerer, who on the other hand has a much higher cost for requirements. Other spellcasters will have to "lose" better HD and ST, and for them the class is less appealing.

FEATURES:

There is really nothing new, which you can't have from a core class:

- Secrets are small but useful bonuses you can more or less duplicate with feats, although stackable with everything

- Lore works like Bardic Knowledge

- Greater Lore and True Lore duplicate spells, but are extraordinary abilities

- Bonus Languages are worth 2 sp (actually 1 sp since LM has Speak Language as class skill)

- Decipher Script and Use Magic Device are a very nice addition, but still not unique (...and some could argue why a normal Wizard misses these skills)

Overall, it's a nice collection which makes sense, but if you want to have 2 or 3 of those abilities only, you don't need to qualify for the PrCl, and can just take them for a higher price.

FLAVOR/RP:

The idea of a sage who knows a lot and in many fields is very nice, especially in an investigation-type campaign. Considering also the requirements previously accrued, the LM has a lot of potential. Unfortunately, it misses more unique abilities (no specific improvement in divination magic, for example), and the feature set tastes too much of "stray knowledge", which overlaps with the concept of the Bard.

REQUIREMENTS:

This is a spellcasters-only PrCl, since its main benefit is still the +1 spellcasting level. The requirements are of 3 kinds:

- spells (divinations only)
- knowledge skills and focus
- metamagic and/or item creation feats

They make sense together, but curiously the LM doesn't get benefits in the divination fields from the PrCl itself (he might even decide not to learn any new divination at all), and very little for the other 2.

DESIGN:

The class is well designed, but it is not the only option to make a "master of knowledge", and this option doesn't seem particularly attractive, as already said above.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OVERALL: 7

 

[smetzger]

Rude comment there, smetzger.

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else.

They would have put her beside a desk filled with strange grimoire (anyone remembers the 1st edition Unearthed arcana's cover? That was a sexy picture for a loremaster), there might have been more appeal to the PrC.

Yes, that would be a perfect picture.

 

[Storm Raven]

The feat requirements. You use up a lot of your low level feats in order to get into this class early.

Not really. As a Wizard, you get the Scribe Scroll feat for free, that's one of the Item Creation feats there. You get another metamagic or item creation feat at 5th level, so unless you have a burning desire to take spell mastery, you are set for the second of those feats. All that leaves is the Skill Focus feat to buy.

Lack of Familiar Advancement. For a class that is concentrating on the ability to gain information, having a familiar that can listen in to conversations and scout is great.

It is, but it is a minor concern. Several of the familiar's abilities continue to advance based on your character level anyway (saves, BAB, hit points, etc.) and the upper level class based abilities are nice, but not critical.

The spell cost. Any wizard who isn't a diviner is going to be paying for those spells. Unless you are in a campaign that has fixed the cost to scribe a spell into a wizard's spellbook, this is a big cost.

You can get most of the spells you need pretty much in your opening spellbook, some of the cantrips are divination spells. Most Wizards are going to take a decent selection of divinations in their spellbook anyway, a Wizard would almost be crazy not to take something like scry and detect thoughts for example.

The requirement to put 10 ranks in two skills. Even with a high Int, in order to get into the class as quickly as possible it is likely that you've made sacrifices in order to have the required ranks at level 7 so you can start Loremaster at level 8. As a wizard, you only have your Int Modifier and maybe race modifier to buy other skills with.

Most Wizards are already going to try to max out Knowledge (Arcana) anyway. Adding another Knowledge skill is not that big of a sacrifice. For example, a typical human Wizard starting with a 16 Intelligence can keep 6 skills maxed out (2 base + 1 human bonus + 3 Intelligence bonus skill points per level). Take Alchemy, Concentration, Spellcraft, Scry, Knowledge (Arcana) and one other Knowledge skill and max them out and you are set.

When you just build a high level character from scratch, only the lack of familiar advancement is likely to be a problem. It is when you work your character up until they qualify that you really see the costs.

The costs aren't nearly as large as you think.

 

[hong]

I know it's probably not what you meant but the way you said it was rather blunt.

Bah.


Hong "channelling MSB this week" Ooi

 

[Gez]

The best proof the Loremaster is not that twinked out...

...is that the Sage of Shadowdale himself has absolutely no levels in it.

 

[bret]

Not really. As a Wizard, you get the Scribe Scroll feat for free, that's one of the Item Creation feats there. You get another metamagic or item creation feat at 5th level, so unless you have a burning desire to take spell mastery, you are set for the second of those feats. All that leaves is the Skill Focus feat to buy.

Assuming a non-human wizard, by 7th level you have:
Scribe Scroll
3 General feats (1st, 3rd, 6th)
1 Wizard feat (5th)

Of those feats, you have to spend 3 of them to qualify for the PrC.

I would say that 75% of your feats is a significant investment.

You can get most of the spells you need pretty much in your opening spellbook, some of the cantrips are divination spells. Most Wizards are going to take a decent selection of divinations in their spellbook anyway, a Wizard would almost be crazy not to take something like scry and detect thoughts for example.

There is only one divination cantrip. By my count, there are only 15 total divination spells of levels 1-4 in the PHB.

You have to have slightly less than half of all the divinations available. Sounds like a pretty big investment. Only one of those (the cantrip) is truely free, since in all the other cases you could have scribed a different spell.

I agree that this isn't a problem for a Diviner, but any other spellcaster will find it to have a cost. It will affect their spell choices.

Most Wizards are already going to try to max out Knowledge (Arcana) anyway. Adding another Knowledge skill is not that big of a sacrifice. For example, a typical human Wizard starting with a 16 Intelligence can keep 6 skills maxed out (2 base + 1 human bonus + 3 Intelligence bonus skill points per level). Take Alchemy, Concentration, Spellcraft, Scry, Knowledge (Arcana) and one other Knowledge skill and max them out and you are set.

All wizards try to max out Spellcraft and Concentration in my experience. Knowledge: Arcana often falls behind.

Not all wizards are human, using a human (who gets extra skill points) doesn't do much to show that there isn't a cost. It does more to showcase the advantages of that race.

The costs aren't nearly as large as you think.

I respectfully disagree.

I'm playing a half-elf diviner right now that I'm working towards Loremaster. I have had to make compromises in order to do it.

I find the requirements for Loremaster to be on par with any other PrC for Arcane Spellcasters. You give up Familiar Advancement and a meta-magic feat or two in order to get the package. The feats and skills are the main requirement in this case.

If you don't value familiar advancement or flexibility in feat selection, then the costs are low. If you would have liked to have Greater Spell Focus and Greater Spell Penetration (neither of which are metamagic feats) by 10th level, then they are way too high.
I don't think the costs are horrible, but they are definately there.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I'm going to have to answer several people at once here, so apologies if it seems confused. Some will be repeats of later posters' comments, I'm sure.

Merlion: it's not munchkin in the classical sense, but it's a class that's better than the original core class in every way. It's a no-brainer choice. Practically every Wizard I know will have several Divinations by the time they're level 7 (See Invisibility, for example, is practically always taken in my experience, with Detect Thoughts running a close second), and the "one of which must be level 3" doesn't mean much when you notice Scry and Clairvoyance meet that. Admittedly it's a bit tougher if you stick to the PHB (Detect Undead? Yawn). Getting seven is easy once you add splatbooks (Aura Sight!) and custom/researched spells, and level 1 spells just don't cost that much to scribe.

No matter what type of Wizard you want to play, unless you've picked Divination as a prohibited school, you're better off taking Loremaster than going core Wizard. That, to me, is bad.

Gez: Eventually, you get reimbursed, but notice that two of the three "lost" Feats are "opportunity costs", Feats you WOULD have gained had you remained a Wizard. The only true Feat cost is the Skill Focus.

Bret: you don't use up "a lot of your lower-level Feats" to get in. At levels 1 and 5 a Wizard gets bonus Feats, which must be metamagic or item creation. No matter what you pick, these satisfy the Loremaster's requirements.
That means, for Wizards, the Feat cost is Skill Focus and one item/metamagic Feat. Since metamagic Feats grow MORE useful as you gain levels, it's not really harmful to take an extra one early on. You could just wait for level 10, of course.
Example: Human Wizard.
Level 1: Spellcasting Prodigy, Improved Initiative
Level 1 (Wizard): Scribe Scroll
Level 3: Craft Wondrous Items
Level 5 (Wizard): Empower Spell
Level 6: Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana)
At level 7 you finish up the Knowledge requirement, and at level 8 you go Wiz 7/Lor 1.

Note that if you have an INT of 20 you can pick "Free Feat" with your Lor3 Secret (character level 10), otherwise you wait to Lor5 (character level 12); this Feat offsets the Skill Focus at level 6.

Other than that level 6 Feat, the rest is a progression people would normally take anyway! Well, they might take Spell Focus or something instead of II, but that's a flavor thing. In fact, the only real decision here before that was taking a metamagic/item Feat at level 3 instead of, say, Spell Focus, and that's not a difficult decision when you look at the utility of Craft Wondrous Item.

10 ranks in two skills isn't that bad. I've had to do it with a INT 14 Sorcerer, so believe me, Wizards have it easy.
Wizards get 2+INT per level, so they could max out 2+INT skills if they didn't spread out. Assuming the Wizard has an INT of 16, that's only 2 out of every 5 points. You could still maximize Spellcraft and Concentration, with enough points left over to buy things like Scry. And remember, Knowledge (Arcana) is something you would have raised anyway. Maybe not maxxed out, but it's something.