Please stop paying full price for rulebooks.

[Numion]

As for what other hobbies I've seen massive discounting cripple: comics, collectible card games and sports cards come to mind. Comics being the worst hit because of massive discounting and speculation. I remember in the early 90s when people were refusing to buy comics for anything less than 25% off cover. Stores opened and then closed a year later because they couldn't make a profit to pay rent and utilities. I remember Wal Mart and Blockbuster trying to sell comics at a discount. That didn't last long though.

I just don't want to see it happen again. I'm very passionate about gaming and I want to see it survive. I don't see how that is a bad thing.
[/B]

It's not a bad thing, of course. But I must ask: did the discounting kill comics? I though so. And neither will it kill D&D.

I don't know anyone who heard from RPGs at a store, btw. It's all been word-of-mouth.

 

[Veander]

Is it possible that FLGSs are only part of this "6 degrees of seperation" in city areas? I can be certain that in rural areas, like that where I grew up, don't have hobby shops like I see in the city area I live now. Next question would be where do most gamers live? City or country? I realize there are some LGSs in rural areas, but this is just in my experience and that of my gaming groups. Waldenbooks was the place to get the stuff.

Oh can we also discuss loss prevention? Hehe I would think online businesses have no loss prevention really. A brick and mortar has to have somewhere around 2 to 3 %? Maybe more considering the clientelle are young kids who are usually poor without parents cash. LAck of loss prevention means the books can have discounts without fear of a bad year of loss prevention.

(loss prevention also includes inventory problems and paperwork screwups so I guess even online stores can suffer from that)

Sincerely,

Veander

 

[Numion]

No, that doesn't follow. Why? Because most FLGS's (even very successful ones like the Game Parlor in Chantilly) operate on fairly small profit margins. Even a fairly small decline in their customer base threatens their existence. (This is not unique to FLGS's, most small businesses teeter on the edge of profitability, it is simply a fact of life for the small business world).

I don't know.. these arguments just don't seem to make sense from an economic point of view. Again, if what you wrote here was true, then the FLGSs would have a way to increase their profitability, since their customers don't have any other place to shop from, according to your earlier post.

And if you think of the fact that d20 notably increased the volume of RPG business, how is it possible that FLGSs stayed in business before it? Remember that you wrote above that even a slightly smaller customer base would make small shops unprofitable. Does not compute.

 

[Tiefling]

Look deeper. Ask the parents/teachers/friends where they first were introduced to gaming.

Some read promotional material. Others were introduced the way I described. A few were the first-generation guys who found it the way you describe.

It's just like "6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon." I bought my first AD&D books at a hobby store that sold models and trains. Luckily, the basic set came with dice at the time or I would have been SOL. I've bought most of my gaming material at speciality stores since then because no one would carry stuff like that. Go to large bookstores like B&N and ask the clerks there if they know anything about the new revised D&D corebooks. That should be amusing. Right now you have it easy because gaming stores are pretty frequent.

The hobby stores that sell models and trains would still be there. And there are the larger book stores. You don't need FLGSs to wander into the hobby.

As for what other hobbies I've seen massive discounting cripple: comics, collectible card games and sports cards come to mind. Comics being the worst hit because of massive discounting and speculation. I remember in the early 90s when people were refusing to buy comics for anything less than 25% off cover. Stores opened and then closed a year later because they couldn't make a profit to pay rent and utilities. I remember Wal Mart and Blockbuster trying to sell comics at a discount. That didn't last long though.

I see. I'm afraid I've never participated in those hobbies, so I don't have any insight into the matter.

I just don't want to see it happen again. I'm very passionate about gaming and I want to see it survive. I don't see how that is a bad thing.

~D

On that part we agree.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

So because I'm a retailer my experience and my opinion on this are invalid? "Oh he's just a priest so of course he's going to say you're going to hell if you don't change your ways."

No offense but that's bull. To be quite honest I'd be of the same opinion I am now whether I owned a store or not.

~D

No but my consideration of your opinion must take that into account.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

It's not a bad thing, of course. But I must ask: did the discounting kill comics? I though so. And neither will it kill D&D.

I don't know anyone who heard from RPGs at a store, btw. It's all been word-of-mouth.

I agree. Every gamers I know personally found out from a freind. Then after being exposed, to D&D in most cases, the decide to go buy thier own books. Then the FLGS comes into play, a role in this situation that an online store could fill just fine. I was playing games for a while before I knew specialty stores existed. I thought you bought your D&D stuff at the toy store.

 

[The Little Raven]

It's not a bad thing, of course. But I must ask: did the discounting kill comics? I though so. And neither will it kill D&D.

I don't know anyone who heard from RPGs at a store, btw. It's all been word-of-mouth.

It didn't kill comics, but it permanently disrupted the market. Are comics as popular as they were 10 years ago? No. Marvel has noticed this, and has moved into other industries with their properties (primarily movies), showing that comics are not as profitable as they once were.

If the same damage done to the comic market is done to the roleplaying market, how will the market right itself? How will the companies expand into other markets to remain viable? The D&D movie wasn't very good, but the LotR trilogy, Harry Potter and such show us that fantasy is still a viable property for other forms of entertainment.

I believe WotC has foreseen exactly what we're talking about, as they are attempting to branch the D&D brand out into other markets. By making D&D into a miniatures game, they can attract more gamers from the miniatures market. With expansion into video games, they attract those gamers, willing to spend hours cramped in one position just to finish one simple quest.

I think the biggest problem with the roleplaying industry is that it is somewhat isolated from other industries. Remember that the biggest companies, distributors and retailers are those that do not specialize in one thing, but spread out to attract a larger market.

And I will back up the statement that the FLGS is the reason the industry is here today. Without it, about 500 gamers that I have met and gamed with personally would not be playing.

And yes, I did mean 500, and I've only been playing since 1988.

 

[Tiefling]

It's a moot point, anyway. There aren't enough people buying from Amazon to kill the FLGSs, and I doubt there will be before Amazon dies.

And I will back up the statement that the FLGS is the reason the industry is here today. Without it, about 500 gamers that I have met and gamed with personally would not be playing.

Explain.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Just a quick note of my own. I have to disagree with the person who said that most gamers are introduced to D&D through their FLGS.

I was introduced to D&D by my cousin, who was introduced to it by his friend. My brother was introduced to D&D by me. I know a girl who was introduced to D&D by her boyfriend. One of the players in my group was introduced to D&D when he got the 1e AD&D rulebooks for Christmas back when he was a kid. The other players in my group were introduced in ways similar to these.

If I had to guess, I'd say that most new D&D players are introduced to the game through friends, family, etc. While there are no doubt many players are introduced to the game through the FLGS, I don't think that the vast majority are.

Also, I don't think that purchasing my D&D books from Amazon.com or another discount retailer will cause the collapse of the RPG industry and civilization as we know it.

 

[John Crichton]

Something people haven't mentioned (I don't think) are the book chains like Waldenbooks, Barnes and Noble, etc. Back when I started gaming, the RPG stuff was kept right next to the fantasy/sci-fi fiction. All you had to do was veer your vision a bit and there the stuff was. So I think many gamers (just as much as any FLGS) started out that way. They were reading their fiction and boom, there was a game that was like it.

Just a thought.