Please stop paying full price for rulebooks.

[Arnwyn]

Tabletop gaming is so niche that *any* sale lost to non-gaming retailers hurts speciality stores. The money from the retail price goes to bills *and* selling more books. It boggles my mind that some people just can't see the threat of massive discounting will have on the future of gaming. You can already read multiple posts about people who refuse to buy from places that don't have massive discounts. I've seen massive discounting lay waste to so many hobbies that I *know* it will do the same to gaming. That's where my 10 plus years of experience in comics and gaming retail comes into this. I've seen it before.

Oh, I think most people understand your argument and what you're talking about. As a business analyst and CMA, I certainly understand you. And here's my response as a consumer: "I don't care." Consumers, within our current economic system, will (and must!) buy products that have value to them. For many, that will be the lowest price. For others, it will be at a higher price - but better service will be included. Etc.

Your worst-case scenario will only come true if and only if enough people choose the deep-discount route in their buying. If that's the case, then it's clear the the industry was overvaluing its products. The market will have spoken, and the industry would have to re-adjust to meet the new market conditions. Result? Hiccup in the industry (cf. TSR situation).

Simply put, the market will adjust. That's just the nature of our current economic system. If there is a need, then the market will fulfill that need. Now obviously, the industry will look different. For example, the books will likely look much different than they do now (non-hardcover, lower page-counts, cheaper paper, no color, etc). However, because the vast majority of consumers chose earlier how they spend their money (ie. deep-discounts, based on your doom and gloom scenario), then the results are, technically, what the vast majority of the market really wanted (ie. cheaper prices instead of the current format of books).

Is there any evidence that most of the D&D/d20 consumers are going the deep discount route? None at all. There is absolutely *no* problem whatsoever of consumers going to deep-discounters, regardless of the complaining of a couple of retailers (and even the attempts of a select few to try to make those people look "bad"). It is legal and legitimate.

The market will re-adjust. End of story.

 

[Tiefling]

Well, I was going to reply to this yesterday but then ENWorld died.

I think Storm Raven talks about this earlier in this thread but most people learn about and first pick up RPGs in stores that specialize in selling them.

Eh? I'm afraid I can't cite examples, but pretty much everyone I've heard tells how their parents bought them their first boxed set, or their teachers recommended it, or their friends played it, or some such thing. None of those things involve an FLGS.

No one picks up a RPG sight unseen and knowledge unheard. Everyone I've ever met has had a RPG introduced to them somehow by a friend, a demo, the internet buzz or any combination of above in a FLGS.

I can see the demo one, but how do the others require an FLGS?

I'm very aware that the gaming hobby is threatened on many fronts. Video games, movies, DVDs and computers all play a role. I know people want to save money and believe me so do I but not at the expense of gaming. I want to see it thrive and continue. If I didn't I wouldn't even be posting here and rambling on like I have been.

Tabletop gaming is so niche that *any* sale lost to non-gaming retailers hurts speciality stores. The money from the retail price goes to bills *and* selling more books. It boggles my mind that some people just can't see the threat of massive discounting will have on the future of gaming. You can already read multiple posts about people who refuse to buy from places that don't have massive discounts. I've seen massive discounting lay waste to so many hobbies that I *know* it will do the same to gaming. That's where my 10 plus years of experience in comics and gaming retail comes into this. I've seen it before.

Which hobbies?

So where does that leave the speciality store that actually supports tabletop gaming? (When I say speciality store I'm even including online stores that sell gaming product and support independant publishers.) Every sale that goes to a massive discounter hurts the speciality store because they've lost money to stay in business. Look how many stores are already going out of business because of the economy. Do you think the massive discounters don't effect that at all?

I don't know. But you have a good point about specialty online stores suffering the same effects. I don't know how that would work. I suppose if not many people bought the more popular books (the ones that the massive discounters sell) from them then they would stock fewer and focus on the small RPGs that the massive discounters don't sell. I don't know if that would work. I doubt it would for a bricks-and-mortar FLGS, but the requirements of an online store are very different.

So my point is when you support wholesale discounting it's just one more cut at the speciality store who actually supports promoting gaming and the hobby of gaming. Take away the place that supports tabletop gaming and you will see the end of tabletop gaming including D&D. Why? Because there won't be a place for a new player to even be exposed to D&D for the first time.

~D

This is very true and is why exposure to gaming is major reason why gaming still exists. When you take away the number one source for exposure the other sources eventually goes away. This is why I want FLGSs to survive so the exposure can continue.

People still aren't telling me why the FLGSs are necessary to expose new people to tabletop RPGs. Am I to be left in the dark forever?

 

[Storm Raven]

If all that is true, then it just isn't possible for on-line massive discounters to kill the FLGSs, now is it? Because you just quite nicely argumented that most of the RPG market isn't online. From this follows that most of the market can't be targeted by these online shops, and thus can't 'steal' most of the clientele of FLGSs', no?

No, that doesn't follow. Why? Because most FLGS's (even very successful ones like the Game Parlor in Chantilly) operate on fairly small profit margins. Even a fairly small decline in their customer base threatens their existence. (This is not unique to FLGS's, most small businesses teeter on the edge of profitability, it is simply a fact of life for the small business world).

 

[TalonComics]

Of course the specialty store owner is going to tell you the end is near unless you support them, no offense to anyone in this thread. Is it possible that the old methods of gaming commerce will go away and we will be fine? People are always resistant to change, especially if thier job depends on things not changing.

So because I'm a retailer my experience and my opinion on this are invalid? "Oh he's just a priest so of course he's going to say you're going to hell if you don't change your ways."

No offense but that's bull. To be quite honest I'd be of the same opinion I am now whether I owned a store or not.

~D

 

[Tiefling]

Say, Ulrick? I want that business model on my desk on Friday.

 

[Veander]

Well, I know if I go out and, using Ebay, Buy.com, or some other outlet, buy 3 books for $30 when the original retail is approximately $50-60, then I notice something interesting. Other gamers I know go out and partake in the same deals. For instance, I was able to get Book of the Righteous for $18 from Buy.com. I had it out the next game night, and 2 gamers thought it was a great book (it is). One gamer looked at the price of $30 on the back of the book and said, "Jeez, Mike, don't you feed your kids?!" Now he was semi-kidding, but then again this was a guy who had a problem with being nice. ANYWAY, the other gamer who was interested agreed they couldn't see spending $30 on such a book. I told them finally what the proce was on Buy.com and one of them bought the book after we were done gaming with Buy.com online. The other guy didn't get it until weeks later... from buy.com.

I know this is a singular event and may not reflect any major statisitic, but it has happened twice since with other products. I admit most of the time the best deals are found while snipering the Ebay auctions, but I feel better getting it from a company with some amount of a return policy.

NONE of the gamers in my group buy books at full price. We all did when 3e started, but we all agreed that with the list of books we want it isn't possible to even take a chunk out of it with full prices.

If it is my responsibility to make it possible for Mongoose, Bastion, WotC, and others to maintain a working business by paying the high costs then maybe, just maybe having all these companies isn't meant to be. If their prices are where they are because they won't have the customer base such as even WotC or even larger companies, then unfortunately they are going to fall. Hey I am somewhat in the biz too, but if I am supposed to go out and battle intellectually with the possible customer base about getting deals, then let the wolves show up at my front door. Granted I just do some side work for a DnD software company, but it's certainly an interesting subject. I hope we can keep talkign about the ins and outs of this issue without the thread getting flamey.

Sincerely,

Veander

NOTE: I want to add that Book of the Righteous is probably the worst scenario to happen considering it is one of the cheapest books AT retail considering what you GET in comparison to other books out there of it's size.

 

[Storm Raven]

Eh? I'm afraid I can't cite examples, but pretty much everyone I've heard tells how their parents bought them their first boxed set, or their teachers recommended it, or their friends played it, or some such thing. None of those things involve an FLGS.

Where did their parents buy it? Or their teacher see it, or their friends get their copy? In most cases, it was an FLGS.

People still aren't telling me why the FLGSs are necessary to expose new people to tabletop RPGs. Am I to be left in the dark forever?

Because that is where most people now are recruited into the hobby. Most people have heard of the game before, but their first buying experience, their first extended contact with gamers in general and their initial formative experiences all featured an FLGS. Right now the FLGS is the most important recruiting tool the hobby has, by a margin that leaves most other forms in the dust. Your friends may have told you about the game, or showed it to you, but for most people, when you wanted to buy the game, you decided to go to an FLGS and check it out for yourself.

 

[TalonComics]

Eh? I'm afraid I can't cite examples, but pretty much everyone I've heard tells how their parents bought them their first boxed set, or their teachers recommended it, or their friends played it, or some such thing. None of those things involve an FLGS.

Look deeper. Ask the parents/teachers/friends where they first were introduced to gaming. It's just like "6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon." I bought my first AD&D books at a hobby store that sold models and trains. Luckily, the basic set came with dice at the time or I would have been SOL. I've bought most of my gaming material at speciality stores since then because no one would carry stuff like that. Go to large bookstores like B&N and ask the clerks there if they know anything about the new revised D&D corebooks. That should be amusing. Right now you have it easy because gaming stores are pretty frequent.

As for what other hobbies I've seen massive discounting cripple: comics, collectible card games and sports cards come to mind. Comics being the worst hit because of massive discounting and speculation. I remember in the early 90s when people were refusing to buy comics for anything less than 25% off cover. Stores opened and then closed a year later because they couldn't make a profit to pay rent and utilities. I remember Wal Mart and Blockbuster trying to sell comics at a discount. That didn't last long though.

I just don't want to see it happen again. I'm very passionate about gaming and I want to see it survive. I don't see how that is a bad thing.

~D

 

[Veander]

Storm Raven, I honestly think that Waldenbooks in the Northeast is responsible for gaming products purchased by these adults. I see Waldenbooks everywhere I go throughout the Northeast US.

I know the people who got me into the gaming scene knew nothing of the FLGS (and it was friendly actually tho mostly comics) in the small town area I grew up near. However, the Waldenbooks store was DIRECTLY responsible. My one substitute teacher (Mr. Brauer or something I hope to meet up with him again someday) from Clarion High School worked full time at the Waldenbooks. He and his work to increase the fantasy section of that store brought in a ton of gamers. The local gaming store was mostly a comic book store that most "adults" you mentioned would be apprehensive entering.

BTW, I concur with Arnwyn fully. I have only a little experience with economics from my retail management experience, however.

Sincerely,

Veander

 

[Tiefling]

Where did their parents buy it? Or their teacher see it, or their friends get their copy? In most cases, it was an FLGS.

Sure, but nothing prevents you from buying your copy online. The teachers usually hear about it from people who play, or as a suggestion in material dealing with building creativity, teamwork, reading comprehension and that sort of thing.

Because that is where most people now are recruited into the hobby. Most people have heard of the game before, but their first buying experience, their first extended contact with gamers in general and their initial formative experiences all featured an FLGS. Right now the FLGS is the most important recruiting tool the hobby has, by a margin that leaves most other forms in the dust. Your friends may have told you about the game, or showed it to you, but for most people, when you wanted to buy the game, you decided to go to an FLGS and check it out for yourself.

Alright, I see your point now. Most people hear about it from friends, etc. but evaluate and buy it from the FLGS and meet gamers there. That wasn't the case for me but it sounds plausible, so I'll assume you're right.

That most people check out the game in the FLGS isn't an issue. The people that told you about the game are almost certainly the ones who told you where to get it. If there's no FLGS then those people will direct you to an applicable website such as Amazon. There you can read the little blurb, look at the preview pages and study the reviews. Then, if you're smart, you can search for other material concerning the game and get any additional information that you would need.

On the other hand, meeting your first gaming group would present a problem. You've got me stumped there.