Please stop paying full price for rulebooks.

Tiefling said:
The biggest loss that would accompany the folding of FLGSs would be the inablility to flip through the book before purchasing it. But Amazon has preview pages for some books, right?

Actually, no, the biggest loss would be distributors and retailers taking chances on new games that massive discounters wouldn't even look twice at. That's always been my main point on the loss of the FLGS. My concern is and has been the future of tabletop gaming. I don't think Mark is a bad guy or a villain nor do I think he has his head up his ass.
I base my opinion on my experience as a retailer in this business for 10 plus years. Believe me, I'm not doing this to get rich. I'm only a retailer because I love gaming and comics.

~D
 

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TalonComics said:


Actually, no, the biggest loss would be distributors and retailers taking chances on new games that massive discounters wouldn't even look twice at. That's always been my main point on the loss of the FLGS. My concern is and has been the future of tabletop gaming. I don't think Mark is a bad guy or a villain nor do I think he has his head up his ass.
I base my opinion on my experience as a retailer in this business for 10 plus years. Believe me, I'm not doing this to get rich. I'm only a retailer because I love gaming and comics.

~D

Thats one thing, but I thought this thread was about D&D. Thats what I'm intrested in; not any new games.

Can you now explain why the death of FLGS's would lead to the demise of D&D? I understand your point about future MtGs, but I'd like to know what that has to do with this thread.

Keep in mind that the whole market is changing - net shopping sites aren't only eating your business, but everything else too. And surely that isn't spelling the end of consuming, as you're saying will happen to D&D?
 

Tiefling said:
If there is demand for the books, someone will supply them.

Eventually, maybe. When RPGs were new, it took years to get enough of a distribution network in place to allow for materials to be supplied on a regular basis. You may not remember the days when photocopied sheets of typewritten material were valuable gaming commodities because that was the only way to get new material. I do.

If the distribution network falls apart due to poor sales, how likely do you think it is that businesses will jump in to fill that gap again?
 

Numion said:
Can you now explain why the death of FLGS's would lead to the demise of D&D? I understand your point about future MtGs, but I'd like to know what that has to do with this thread.

The continued viability of D&D as a hobby is predicated on a more or less continuous influx of new players. Some people get inmto the hobby and stay in it for the "long haul". I've been playing RPGs in some form or another since the 1970s for example.

However, guys like me are in the minority. Most gaming groups have at least a couple of guys who got into the hobby within the last few years. People leave the hobby on a regular basis, as they become disinterested in playing anymore, their spouses pressure them into stopping and the commitments of work and family pull them away. We need the new players to replace the losses.

Most new players are brought into the gaming world via word of mouth, and FLGS's. Most people buy their first books from an FLGS, many people who now game would not game without that FLGS. Without the FLGS, we get a significantly reduced influx of new gamers into the hobby. Players become fewer and far between. The pool of people willing and able to form a game group becomes thinner and thinner, until there are only a handful of isolated people who may or may not be gaming.

The market for the product has shrunk. The borderline profitability of game products is now damaged to such an extent that products are no longer profitable to publish. New material becomes nonexistent. You still have your game books, but without materials available, you have very few players to join you. The books sit on your shelf, gathering dust, because you have no one to game with.
 

I don't think they are too expensive for the most part. The problem is that there are so many. You have plenty of knuckleheads on these boards, other boards, and chatrooms who stop at nothing to show their vast collection (paid for or not). I could care less honestly. I have a nice collection of 3rd edition books, and I use about 10% of them (not including Core).

And until my one friend starts up a store, I will forever buy my books at Buy.com (even if they don't discount). Not interested in bolstering the little guy until the little guy is someone with a bit of retail sense. Human contact in a brick and mortar stores is less than appealling to me. My FLGS wraps all their DnD books. ALL OF THEM. Let'em fall into the cracks of failed businesses. I began playing DnD when it wasn't all that popular and I will play it even if there is no one producing.

Sorry for the slight rant. Man I am on a roll today.

Sincerely

Veander
 

As a consumer it all comes down to the bottom line. If my local store (or Borders, BN, Waldenbooks, for that matter) was able to offer the kind of price I can get at Amazon.com or Buy.com (discount + shipping cost), then I would buy the books there.

Right now, I've got all three D&D 3.5 core books pre-ordered for $60 (including shipping). I'd end up spending $90 at a local store. That $30 will probably be put toward another RPG book, which translates into more sales for WOTC and the d20 industry.
 

TalonComics said:


Actually, no, the biggest loss would be distributors and retailers taking chances on new games that massive discounters wouldn't even look twice at. That's always been my main point on the loss of the FLGS. My concern is and has been the future of tabletop gaming. I don't think Mark is a bad guy or a villain nor do I think he has his head up his ass.
I base my opinion on my experience as a retailer in this business for 10 plus years. Believe me, I'm not doing this to get rich. I'm only a retailer because I love gaming and comics.

~D

The massize discounters don't have to look twice. For smaller RPGs you can order from online stores that specialize in gaming. Like RPGShop.

Storm Raven said:
Eventually, maybe. When RPGs were new, it took years to get enough of a distribution network in place to allow for materials to be supplied on a regular basis. You may not remember the days when photocopied sheets of typewritten material were valuable gaming commodities because that was the only way to get new material. I do.

I had yet to be born, I'm afraid. :)

If the distribution network falls apart due to poor sales, how likely do you think it is that businesses will jump in to fill that gap again?

I think it's unlikely that the distribution network would abruptly suffer catastrophic system failure. The FLGSs wouldn't all fail at once. There would be time for the industry to adapt.

Storm Raven said:
The continued viability of D&D as a hobby is predicated on a more or less continuous influx of new players. Some people get inmto the hobby and stay in it for the "long haul". I've been playing RPGs in some form or another since the 1970s for example.

However, guys like me are in the minority. Most gaming groups have at least a couple of guys who got into the hobby within the last few years. People leave the hobby on a regular basis, as they become disinterested in playing anymore, their spouses pressure them into stopping and the commitments of work and family pull them away. We need the new players to replace the losses.

Most new players are brought into the gaming world via word of mouth, and FLGS's. Most people buy their first books from an FLGS, many people who now game would not game without that FLGS. Without the FLGS, we get a significantly reduced influx of new gamers into the hobby. Players become fewer and far between. The pool of people willing and able to form a game group becomes thinner and thinner, until there are only a handful of isolated people who may or may not be gaming.

The market for the product has shrunk. The borderline profitability of game products is now damaged to such an extent that products are no longer profitable to publish. New material becomes nonexistent. You still have your game books, but without materials available, you have very few players to join you. The books sit on your shelf, gathering dust, because you have no one to game with.

I think word of mouth is the more important factor. Very few people who don't game will wander into the FLGS and start gaming just like that. They hear about it from their friends, family, teachers, co-workers, etc. They merely buy the books at the FLGS. Nothing prevents them from ordering over the internet.

The point stands that while the FLGSs may have been the single information source ten years ago, they aren't anymore. People can get their information from company websites and massive news and reviews sites such as this one. Not many people (percentage-wise) do that at this point, of course, but I think that if the FLGSs began to fail there would be enough people who get their information from the internet to tell everyone else how to do so.
 

Everyone has their reasons for buying where they do. Everyone has a price. I used to buy all of my d20 books at the same FLGS. The owner messed up the only two special orders I ever made with him, so lost my business. I order online now from other sources depending on the book. Some from real game stores that happen to have a website. I also shop at the local big chain bookstore if they have what I want in stock.

I certainly see the need for the FLGS. That's what keeps the hobby laive. It's where players meet one another. The FLGS (in my mind, maybe not yours) has a duty to foster the gaming community. Even if it is something as simple as a bulletin board people can hang a note on to ask for players. Even if it is as grand as having a nice area set aside for gamers to run games and special hours on weekends to accommodate gamers' needs. That's what the big chains and e-tailers cannot provide. Plus, there's nothing quite like the feeling of walking into a FLGS where the owner knows you greets you and your family by name and says, "Hey, I know you are running Scarred Lands, they have a new book coming out. Should I hold one for you?" That's what a FLSG should provide, and if I have my way, this area may get that again.
 

Veander said:
My FLGS wraps all their DnD books. ALL OF THEM. Let'em fall into the cracks of failed businesses. I began playing DnD when it wasn't all that popular and I will play it even if there is no one producing.

Sounds like your FLGS isn't that friendly. If they arn't friendly, then they don't deserve support.

ALthough I have been on the side of the FLGS, if people don't have a FLGS, I can hardly blame them for buying from Walmart. If all the store offers is being local, that hardly supports the industry.

And though being "local" is completely relative, I can understand that people who purchace because the drive time is just too much.

So maybe this is the middle ground.


Just because you have a game shop in your area, doesn't make it friendly, nor does it make it local.


my suggestion
But when you have a shop within say 30 min or less from your home, and it is willing to provide you with special services (ordering, ample stocking, gaming room, ect), then and only then is it a FLGS (Friendly Local Gaming Store). If the store cannot provide this service, or is to far away, it's not a FLGS. Feel free to spend you money else ware. But if you do have such a place that does cater to you, please consider patronizing it.

/my suggestion
 
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