Please stop paying full price for rulebooks.

[Storm Raven]

My FLGS wraps all their DnD books. ALL OF THEM. Let'em fall into the cracks of failed businesses.

Mine does too. I prefer that they do that. It makes it less likely that some other guy with pizza stained hands will have thumbed through the book before I bought it.

I began playing DnD when it wasn't all that popular and I will play it even if there is no one producing.

But who will you play it with?

 

[Storm Raven]

I think word of mouth is the more important factor. Very few people who don't game will wander into the FLGS and start gaming just like that. They hear about it from their friends, family, teachers, co-workers, etc. They merely buy the books at the FLGS. Nothing prevents them from ordering over the internet.

There are problems with this mode of thought.

(1) Very few people seem to be willing to make their first purchases in a new hobby sight unseen online. Many people are too impatient to even wait for a product to be shipped to them that they have bought, they want their book right now, and if they can't get it, then they will spend their money on something else that they can get right now.

(2) Many new gamers are young. In many cases, too young to have things like credit cards and checking accounts that make online buying even viable. Thus, to have any chance of buying products this way, they would have to wheedle their parents into buying (sight unseen) products for their child's new hobby. This is an added hassle that will likely deter many new gamers.

(3) Despite what you might think, the vast majority of gamers are not online, and have limited, if any, ability to purchase materials on the net. Sure, places like enworld create the illusion that a vast cross section of the rpg fan base is online savvy, but the reality is that we represent a tiny fraction of the gaming community. Walk into an FLGS and ask a random sampling of the customers there about enworld, rpg.net and a couple similar sites, and I would bet you would get mostly confused silence from the patrons in response to your inquiries.

The point stands that while the FLGSs may have been the single information source ten years ago, they aren't anymore. People can get their information from company websites and massive news and reviews sites such as this one. Not many people (percentage-wise) do that at this point, of course, but I think that if the FLGSs began to fail there would be enough people who get their information from the internet to tell everyone else how to do so.

All of which is predicated on the idea that the majority of gamers are on the net and use that as their source of information about rpg materials. This is not the case now, and is unlikely to be the case in the reasonably near future.

 

[Numion]

There are problems with this mode of thought.

(1) Very few people seem to be willing to make their first purchases in a new hobby sight unseen online. Many people are too impatient to even wait for a product to be shipped to them that they have bought, they want their book right now, and if they can't get it, then they will spend their money on something else that they can get right now.

(2) Many new gamers are young. In many cases, too young to have things like credit cards and checking accounts that make online buying even viable. Thus, to have any chance of buying products this way, they would have to wheedle their parents into buying (sight unseen) products for their child's new hobby. This is an added hassle that will likely deter many new gamers.

(3) Despite what you might think, the vast majority of gamers are not online, and have limited, if any, ability to purchase materials on the net. Sure, places like enworld create the illusion that a vast cross section of the rpg fan base is online savvy, but the reality is that we represent a tiny fraction of the gaming community. Walk into an FLGS and ask a random sampling of the customers there about enworld, rpg.net and a couple similar sites, and I would bet you would get mostly confused silence from the patrons in response to your inquiries.



All of which is predicated on the idea that the majority of gamers are on the net and use that as their source of information about rpg materials. This is not the case now, and is unlikely to be the case in the reasonably near future. [/B]

If all that is true, then it just isn't possible for on-line massive discounters to kill the FLGSs, now is it? Because you just quite nicely argumented that most of the RPG market isn't online. From this follows that most of the market can't be targeted by these online shops, and thus can't 'steal' most of the clientele of FLGSs', no?

 

[Veander]

Storm Raven, I seemed to find more people back then then I do now. I don't know if having LGS is the best enhancement to the game. I think the game being made by a company that produced Magic: The Gathering and the recent (past several years) influx of video gaming (console and computer) has more to do with it. Subjective issue.

I have YET to find pizza stained books at Borders, Waldenbooks, or any other store. It's called lack of leadership in their store. I happen to know just a tad bit about running a retail store and I still can't fathom why one copy isn't made available to read through. Well, I can guess at the reason. The owner feels his "friendly" visiting gamers pull the books off the shelf during games and then "decide" not to buy it once the game has finished. A simple policy of not allowing people to game with the books until they are bought is easy to enforce. In fact another LGS just a little farther from me does this.

However, LGSs will always be the best place to find mass-market minis. Confrontations, however, I have to use Brookhurst hobbies online. If only New Wave had an automated online stocking system that worked. hehe

Sincerely,

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

The only reason I buy at my LGS is so I can browse thru a book before I buy it. I'm not fanboy enough, even with Gygax stuff, to buy anything sight unseen. If they started sealing thier books I'd switch to whatever online discounter gave me the best deal and forget about going there anymore. If they folded, oh well. There is nothing there beyond friendly employees to make me come back as it is. No discount off SRP at all, no gaming beyond the manager and employees playing Warhammer 40k or Magic every now and then at the store right next to me. Actually this store is part of a chain in St. Louis and I never see any kind of RPG promotions going on. It's all Warhammer, 40k, Clix, and CCG stuff at the locations that have gaming space at all. They have a super store about a half hour driver from me and it has a ton of tables set up for gaming. But I never have seen a RPG being played.

But my point was sealed books are the best way to get me to shop somewhere else.

 

[Tiefling]

There are problems with this mode of thought.

(1) Very few people seem to be willing to make their first purchases in a new hobby sight unseen online.

I was under the impression that most people are introduced to gaming by talking to people that already do. In which case they would probably be able to read through the books before purchasing them. Heck, as long as someone in the group has the books, the new guy doesn't have to buy them at all. He can game for a while without them and only order them when he wants the convenience of his own copy. At least, that's how it worked for me.

Many people are too impatient to even wait for a product to be shipped to them that they have bought, they want their book right now, and if they can't get it, then they will spend their money on something else that they can get right now.

Prove it. Especially considering that in most cases they can see and use the books before buying them.

(2) Many new gamers are young. In many cases, too young to have things like credit cards and checking accounts that make online buying even viable. Thus, to have any chance of buying products this way, they would have to wheedle their parents into buying (sight unseen) products for their child's new hobby. This is an added hassle that will likely deter many new gamers.

I thought most kids got their parents to buy them the books. In my case, whenever I wish to order things online I ask my mother to let me use her debit card and then pay her pack in cash or with money from my savings account. What's the problem?

(3) Despite what you might think, the vast majority of gamers are not online, and have limited, if any, ability to purchase materials on the net. Sure, places like enworld create the illusion that a vast cross section of the rpg fan base is online savvy, but the reality is that we represent a tiny fraction of the gaming community. Walk into an FLGS and ask a random sampling of the customers there about enworld, rpg.net and a couple similar sites, and I would bet you would get mostly confused silence from the patrons in response to your inquiries.

Actually I'm very well aware of this, more than a lot of people here I think. That's why, in my previous post, I wrote, "Not many people (percentage-wise) [use the internet for gaming information] at this point, of course, but I think that if the FLGSs began to fail there would be enough people who get their information from the internet to tell everyone else how to do so."

All of which is predicated on the idea that the majority of gamers are on the net and use that as their source of information about rpg materials. This is not the case now, and is unlikely to be the case in the reasonably near future.

See above.

 

[Belares]

Price of fun?

Gamers, no matter if they are new to gaming, or an old gamer, will buy the books..at whatever price.

IMHO, the books are just fine..my problem is paying full price for a new book..say 3E 3.5 version, when it should be cheaper. I do not know how much or what format they are doing it though. Still will buy it though..LOL

 

[TalonComics]

Thats one thing, but I thought this thread was about D&D. Thats what I'm intrested in; not any new games.

Can you now explain why the death of FLGS's would lead to the demise of D&D? I understand your point about future MtGs, but I'd like to know what that has to do with this thread.

Keep in mind that the whole market is changing - net shopping sites aren't only eating your business, but everything else too. And surely that isn't spelling the end of consuming, as you're saying will happen to D&D?

Well, I was going to reply to this yesterday but then ENWorld died.

I think Storm Raven talks about this earlier in this thread but most people learn about and first pick up RPGs in stores that specialize in selling them. No one picks up a RPG sight unseen and knowledge unheard. Everyone I've ever met has had a RPG introduced to them somehow by a friend, a demo, the internet buzz or any combination of above in a FLGS.

I'm very aware that the gaming hobby is threatened on many fronts. Video games, movies, DVDs and computers all play a role. I know people want to save money and believe me so do I but not at the expense of gaming. I want to see it thrive and continue. If I didn't I wouldn't even be posting here and rambling on like I have been.

Tabletop gaming is so niche that *any* sale lost to non-gaming retailers hurts speciality stores. The money from the retail price goes to bills *and* selling more books. It boggles my mind that some people just can't see the threat of massive discounting will have on the future of gaming. You can already read multiple posts about people who refuse to buy from places that don't have massive discounts. I've seen massive discounting lay waste to so many hobbies that I *know* it will do the same to gaming. That's where my 10 plus years of experience in comics and gaming retail comes into this. I've seen it before.

So where does that leave the speciality store that actually supports tabletop gaming? (When I say speciality store I'm even including online stores that sell gaming product and support independant publishers.) Every sale that goes to a massive discounter hurts the speciality store because they've lost money to stay in business. Look how many stores are already going out of business because of the economy. Do you think the massive discounters don't effectthat at all?

So my point is when you support wholesale discounting it's just one more cut at the speciality store who actually supports promoting gaming and the hobby of gaming. Take away the place that supports tabletop gaming and you will see the end of tabletop gaming including D&D. Why? Because there won't be a place for a new player to even be exposed to D&D for the first time.

~D

 

[TalonComics]

I was under the impression that most people are introduced to gaming by talking to people that already do. In which case they would probably be able to read through the books before purchasing them. Heck, as long as someone in the group has the books, the new guy doesn't have to buy them at all. He can game for a while without them and only order them when he wants the convenience of his own copy. At least, that's how it worked for me.

This is very true and is why exposure to gaming is major reason why gaming still exists. When you take away the number one source for exposure the other sources eventually goes away. This is why I want FLGSs to survive so the exposure can continue.

Storm Raven, I think you have some great points but I also think speciality gaming stores online also help promote gaming.

~D

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Of course the specialty store owner is going to tell you the end is near unless you support them, no offense to anyone in this thread. Is it possible that the old methods of gaming commerce will go away and we will be fine? People are always resistant to change, especially if thier job depends on things not changing.