Please stop paying full price for rulebooks.

[TalonComics]

I don't shop at Bob's Games and Comics because Bob's doesn't have the selections I want, marks up the items I want too high, and also has to tack on state sales tax, further increasing the price out of my limited entertainment budget range.

So I shop Amazon.

This causes Bob's to go out of business? Which in turn causes Amazon to fold (because game books are such a huge part of their business, I'm sure)?

I buy almost all of my books from Amazon or Barnes & Nobles. All of them, and I buy far more non-game books than I do game books.

If Bob's can't handle the competition, I'm sorry for Bob. But Bob doesn't have to put food on the table here in my house or pay my mortgage and student loans.

It's simple math: Pay $40+ for d20 CoC at Bob's or pay $19 and change for the same book from Amazon?

Sorry, Bob. Nothing personal, but you lost this round.

Riiiiight.
The short of it is this: The speciality game store is the reason tabletop RPGs even still exist. Sad but true. If you support the massive discounters then you're just effectly putting one more nail into the coffin that is the tabletop gaming market. No gamer wants that!

Someone said earlier that D&D was almost dead 10 years ago. No, it *was* dead. TSR was gone and out of business. WotC bought the rights to TSR with money they made from their CCG, Magic: The Gathering, which only took off because of a grass roots campaign by speciality gaming stores and distributors like "Bob". Heck, I remember the call when my distributor called me up and said, "we just got this really cool game that you should try out!" Sure, I was a little skeptical but I still bought a starter and booster box. When I got those in and played it that was all she wrote!

Did Barnes and Noble do that? Did Wal Mart? No, of course not. Why? Because the gaming market only exists for them when they think they can make tons of money on it and at the same time run off competition. They don't take chances and they don't support the small publishers. WotC *was* small publisher until they found their hit game.

So "Bob" doesn't put food on your table or pay your student loans but "Bob" does want table top gaming to survive. "Bob" also wants to see cool new games like M:tG, Settlers of Catan and even D&D 3rd Ed. Does Barnes & Noble?

So you say "Bob" loses the round but the reality is we, the gamers, will all lose when the gaming market is gone because massive discounters kill it with short term sales.

~Derek

 

[Numion]

Riiiiight.
The short of it is this: The speciality game store is the reason tabletop RPGs even still exist. Sad but true. If you support the massive discounters then you're just effectly putting one more nail into the coffin that is the tabletop gaming market. No gamer wants that!

That might have been true in times before widespread internet. Times have changed, and information about games isn't that dependent on gaming stores. Information is available in the net quite easily. If specialty gaming stores cannot survive, well, too bad, but it doesn't mean that the hobby would die. It will just change, and as always there is resistance to that change, but you can't fight the 'progress'.

 

[Mark Chance]

Someone said earlier that D&D was almost dead 10 years ago. No, it *was* dead.

Funny. 10 years ago I was still playing D&D. More than I do now. D&D wasn't dead. TSR was.

So "Bob" doesn't put food on your table or pay your student loans but "Bob" does want table top gaming to survive. "Bob" also wants to see cool new games like M:tG, Settlers of Catan and even D&D 3rd Ed. Does Barnes & Noble?

Bob going out of business doesn't affect my game. Every Bob going out of business doesn't affect my game. I can dust off my 1E D&D books tomorrow and starting playing like it was still 1977.

So you say "Bob" loses the round but the reality is we, the gamers, will all lose when the gaming market is gone because massive discounters kill it with short term sales.

Sorry, but it doesn't wash. The distributors (read: the FLGS) are not the market. We, the consumers, are the market.

TSR didn't go out business because local game stores were crushed by those evil massive discounters. TSR went out of business because it had a lousy business model putting out substandard products. And, when TSR went under, the market (read: the consumers) for D&D did not vanish. We went shopping someplace else.

The market for RPG books would not vanish if every single FLGS in the world were beamed up to Neptune tomorrow. The market would shift to another form of distribution in order to meet the already existing demand. IOW, if all the FLGS were to vanish tomorrow, Amazon and other major book distributors would be the first in line to meet the already existing demand and provide to gamers the books that gamers are asking for.

Here's a basic fact of economics: The real price of a good or service is what someone is willing to pay for it. If the asking price is higher than what most people are willing to pay for it, then the asking price is not the real price. If lowering the asking price to the real price leads to nonprofitability, there is a problem with the product and/or its marketing (at least with the context of the current economic situation).

But, once again, I'm not saying RPG books are overpriced. I'm saying I can't afford cover price for them. So I buy them for less than cover price.

And me doing so is not hurting the market because I am, in part, the market itself.

 

[jgbrowning]

Here's a basic fact of economics: The real price of a good or service is what someone is willing to pay for it. If the asking price is higher than what most people are willing to pay for it, then the asking price is not the real price. If lowering the asking price to the real price leads to nonprofitability, there is a problem with the product and/or its marketing (at least with the context of the current economic situation).

But, once again, I'm not saying RPG books are overpriced. I'm saying I can't afford cover price for them. So I buy them for less than cover price.

And me doing so is not hurting the market because I am, in part, the market itself.

You should probably add some qualifiers to that basic fact of economics. Most people aren't going to pay $300 for a new model train engine, but enough people will. Visit
[url]http://www.lionel.com/Products/Findex.cfm[/url] for a good look at what other people pay for their hobbies.

Much of determining "real price" is dependant upon choosing (creating) the right market to begin with. What WoTC and other companies are in the process of doing (IMHO) is trying to create a market that's willing to spend more than what it did in the past while growing the market out of "old gamers who think the books should be cheaper" to "new gamers who think $40 bucks ain't no big deal."

This game is a hobby. People will spend a lot more money then they're spending now to support their hobby and WoTC appear to be trying to expand those expenses. Just look at 3.5 and the "collectable randomized" minatures.

joe b.

 

[Mark Chance]

This game is a hobby. People will spend a lot more money then they're spending now to support their hobby and WoTC appear to be trying to expand those expenses. Just look at 3.5 and the "collectable randomized" minatures.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. My simplification of economics was just that: a simplification.

And my point remains: I cannot afford cover price for RPG books, and I refuse to feel guilty for buying them at a discount. I also refuse to support the claim that RPG books are overpriced as part of some evil corporate scheme to bilk me of my hard-earned buck.

 

[MaxKaladin]

Much of determining "real price" is dependant upon choosing (creating) the right market to begin with. What WoTC and other companies are in the process of doing (IMHO) is trying to create a market that's willing to spend more than what it did in the past while growing the market out of "old gamers who think the books should be cheaper" to "new gamers who think $40 bucks ain't no big deal."

There are also production costs to consider. You can't charge less than it costs to produce a book and expect to make a profit.

Anyway, I don't think its so simple as old gamers vs new gamers. I consider myself an old gamer with almost 20 years under my belt (just a few months shy). I don't think game books are overpriced. A couple of years ago when I was a well paid IT professional, $40 bucks wasn't a big deal and dropping $100 a week on new releases wasn't a hardship. After two years of unemployment and underemployment (more the former than the latter), $40 bucks IS a big deal and spending *anything* on game books is out of the question. Among the gamers I know, who have almost all been gaming longer than I have, I don't hear any complaints about game books costing too much. Consumption is based almost exclusively on ability to pay. Like it or not, as you get older you have to get used to prices rising from what they were in your youth. All of us have adjusted and the guy with the most gaming time (since about '76 or '77) spends hundreds of bucks a month on new d20 books alone.

 

[jgbrowning]

Anyway, I don't think its so simple as old gamers vs new gamers.

By meaning all old gamers and all new gamers I don't think so either. But generally a new gamer isn't going to know that the book prices were cheaper so there's no purchasing hesitance based upon prior industry prices for a new gamer. There will be for an old gamer simply because the old gamer knows that information. It may not influence his decision, but it may. Hence my old gamer vrs. new gamer idea.

joe b.

 

[Xeriar]

I don't shop at Bob's Games and Comics because Bob's doesn't have the selections I want, marks up the items I want too high, and also has to tack on state sales tax, further increasing the price out of my limited entertainment budget range.

So I shop Amazon.

This causes Bob's to go out of business? Which in turn causes Amazon to fold (because game books are such a huge part of their business, I'm sure)?

If enough people skip Bob's for Amazon, sure (not like he might not deserve it, but some stores certainly don't). But...

In 1998 Amazon lost 124 Million
In 1999 Amazon lost 719 Million
In 2000 Amazon lost 1,411 Million
In 2001 Amazon lost 567 Million
In 2002 Amazon lost 149 Million (though they made money last year, the interest on their enormous debt overrode that).

Amazon cannot, and will not, last forever. Either they will raise prices to levels at which they can turn a real profit, or they go out of business.

I buy almost all of my books from Amazon or Barnes & Nobles. All of them, and I buy far more non-game books than I do game books.

The industry on it's own is not concerned with where you buy your books, it doesn't make a difference unless a single distributor gets so powerful as to dictate prices.

If Bob's can't handle the competition, I'm sorry for Bob. But Bob doesn't have to put food on the table here in my house or pay my mortgage and student loans.

But FLGS's (though you describe Bob's as not being very friendly) support the hobby by providing meeting places for gamers (wargamers, cardgamers, boardgamers and roleplayers alike).

It's simple math: Pay $40+ for d20 CoC at Bob's or pay $19 and change for the same book from Amazon?

Right now it's $27.97 + shipping, and soon, + tax.

Amazon isn't going to be turning a profit this year, either. Eventually the prices are going back up - if people think Amazon's discount is a normal thing, there will be a backlash and publishers will be affected.

Sorry, Bob. Nothing personal, but you lost this round.

I'm not worried about Bob's store, I'm worried about Jeff's store, who preorders RPGs for a lot of people around here. In the past year multiple LGS's (not necessarily friendly) here have gone out of business. Not that I mourn them all.

---

And yes, Jeff gives a discount on RPGs, but that's beside the point.

 

[Xeriar]

By meaning all old gamers and all new gamers I don't think so either. But generally a new gamer isn't going to know that the book prices were cheaper so there's no purchasing hesitance based upon prior industry prices for a new gamer. There will be for an old gamer simply because the old gamer knows that information. It may not influence his decision, but it may. Hence my old gamer vrs. new gamer idea.

joe b.

I'm an old gamer. But, I realize that, by inflation, those $40 books should be costing $45 (ELH) or $50 (FRCS), the original 3 core books should have been $35.

No gauging, WotC made a valiant (and a little risky) attempt at seriously expanding the hobby (to a full recovery from its heyday, IMO).

 

[Mark Chance]

Amazon cannot, and will not, last forever. Either they will raise prices to levels at which they can turn a real profit, or they go out of business.

Nothing lasts forever. If Amazon goes belly up, I'll get discount books elsewhere. Until that happens, I get most game books at least 30% off cover price.

But FLGS's (though you describe Bob's as not being very friendly) support the hobby by providing meeting places for gamers (wargamers, cardgamers, boardgamers and roleplayers alike).

Bob is actually fictional. I buy comics from my FLGS. As for meeting places, et cetera, I own a house. Bob's dirty backroom doesn't interest me.

Right now it's $27.97 + shipping, and soon, + tax.

I got d20 CoC through Amazon for $19 and change. No S&H (bought other stuff as well). And nobody's going to be taxing interstate internet purchases any time soon. That's not even an issue.

In the past year multiple LGS's (not necessarily friendly) here have gone out of business. Not that I mourn them all.

I don't wish anyone to go out business.

And yes, Jeff gives a discount on RPGs, but that's beside the point.

Good for Jeff. And you. But no FLGS in Houston is marking down books 30-50% on anything approaching a regular basis.

Until they do, or until I get a substantial pay raise, they won't be getting my business on anything but comics (for which I get a 10% discount).