Plot Monsters: Give Dragons & Devils Rituals!

[Roman]

Rules like 'Rule 0' or 'Eldritch Machine' have very little usefulness for me. I mean, it is obvious that as a DM I can change things how I want and to introduce any plot device I consider necessary. These rules are essentially non-rules, but that is not what I look for when I buy a roleplaying game. Rather, I look for actual/real rules for the game.

I know that I can add any ritual to any monster without it being stated for me in some rulebook. I can also add powers, spells and whatever else I want. However, I am buying the game, so that I don't have to design one myself! One fundamental expectation I have from a fantasy roleplaying game is that I will be provided with creatures that will be useful not just as combat elements, though this purpose is important, but also as NPCs that can act as allies, villains, guides, advisors, and so on. I don't want to be forced to design all their abilities for these functions myself. Sure, if I want to change the flavor of some creatures by changing around their powers I will, but if I have to outright make up almost all of them for almost all creatures I want to use, than that is a problem that I do not wish to deal with in a game.

Giving the ability to cast rituals to important monsters, along with rules on how well they can cast them and also giving us a list of rituals a typical monster of that type might know would enable the simplification for combat that many seem to desire, yet still give us rules and material for non-combat uses of these beings.

 

[Derren]

I agree with Roman. I don't want to buy books which tell me to make things up myself. I can always change stuff if I don't like it (lets say that happens 50% of all times) but when the stuff is not there I have to make it up 100% of all times.

Kamikaze Midget also made a very good point for statted out of combat abilities.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3983551&postcount=149

Basically stated out of combat abilities makes it easier for you to write adventures as they explain how the monster works and interacts with the world which inspires you. Like he said "connecting the dots".
If you don't like the background of a monster you can change it anyway.

I don't understand. Why does simplifying a creature make it weaker?

Imagine you have a dragon without spellcasting. This dragon can't scry on his enemies, keep contact with his spies, place alarm traps in his lair, ward it against planar intrusion or organizations. Thats pretty bad for a "mover and shaker". The only thing the dragon can do is sitting in the lair and terrorizing nearby villages. Nothing more.

Or the dragon has to rely on minions to do all this stuff for it. But that requires some pretty good spellcasters and in the end the minions are the real "movers" while the dragon is a glorified guard dog.
Sure you can simply rule 0 that somehow without explanation this dragon can do all this itself, but why should you have to?

 

[Sitara]

I agree with Roman. I don't want to buy books which tell me to make things up myself. I can always change stuff if I don't like it (lets say that happens 50% of all times) but when the stuff is not there I have to make it up 100% of all times.

Kamikaze Midget also made a very good point for statted out of combat abilities.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3983551&postcount=149

Basically stated out of combat abilities makes it easier for you to write adventures as they explain how the monster works and interacts with the world which inspires you. Like he said "connecting the dots".
If you don't like the background of a monster you can change it anyway.



Imagine you have a dragon without spellcasting. This dragon can't scry on his enemies, keep contact with his spies, place alarm traps in his lair, ward it against planar intrusion or organizations. Thats pretty bad for a "mover and shaker". The only thing the dragon can do is sitting in the lair and terrorizing nearby villages. Nothing more.

And maybe thats the point! Dragons are large canny beasts of terrifying strength and power...and thats it! They are not movers and shakers of the world, otherwise they would be ruling it, not humans!

So if in 4e dragons sit on their treasure hoards and terrorize small reagons, I am more than happy with it.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Imagine you have a dragon without spellcasting. This dragon can't scry on his enemies, keep contact with his spies, place alarm traps in his lair, ward it against planar intrusion or organizations. Thats pretty bad for a "mover and shaker". The only thing the dragon can do is sitting in the lair and terrorizing nearby villages. Nothing more.

Or the dragon has to rely on minions to do all this stuff for it. But that requires some pretty good spellcasters and in the end the minions are the real "movers" while the dragon is a glorified guard dog.
Sure you can simply rule 0 that somehow without explanation this dragon can do all this itself, but why should you have to?

Not sure I understand the problem. Wearing my DM hat, if it a low magic campaign then knowledge of rituals and magic users in general is rare and in that case the dragon is a glorified guard dog but in a high magic world a semi-immortal being like a dragon could have picked up enough knowledge arcana and has enough time on its hands to work out rituals to do what ever.

IMO rituals tap into ambient magic, they do not really need a wizard to cast, it is just that if the caster has innate magic they are easier to create and cast.

 

[LostSoul]

Imagine you have a dragon without spellcasting. This dragon can't scry on his enemies, keep contact with his spies, place alarm traps in his lair, ward it against planar intrusion or organizations. Thats pretty bad for a "mover and shaker". The only thing the dragon can do is sitting in the lair and terrorizing nearby villages. Nothing more.

Or the dragon has to rely on minions to do all this stuff for it. But that requires some pretty good spellcasters and in the end the minions are the real "movers" while the dragon is a glorified guard dog.
Sure you can simply rule 0 that somehow without explanation this dragon can do all this itself, but why should you have to?

In my opinion, all the dragon needs to be is smart. If I were watching a movie where the BBEG was a genius (and really, really tough in combat), that would be enough for me to believe he could be the ruler.

I think that if you do add minions to the adventure, that makes the dragon a better NPC - the dragon needs to have connections to his minions, connections that can be exploited by the PCs.

 

[Kaisoku]

It sounds to me that a lot of what people are asking for is "NPC Building Tools", not MM stat block info.

Building a Dragon as an NPC world shaker isn't something that the MM is meant for. That's what the DMG's NPC building rules are for.


I really don't understand the idea of making an adventure where the Dragon is supposed to be some major player in the campaign... only to JUST use the MM stat block and try to wing it from there.

If this creature is supposed to be such a major player, it should have gone through an NPC overhaul. Just like the Orc Warlord isn't going to be "standard Orc + fluff text built into the MM statblock", the Dragon who isn't just an encounter for combat isn't going to be plopped into an adventure using just the MM.



I think we've been so used to using the DMG for nothing but Magic Item reference that we ignore that some elements that we think might be missing are still really there.

If Jennifer Clarke Wilke's blog is any indication, there will actually be a USE for having the DMG around. Also, there might be future use of DMG II, III, IV, etc as well... if NPC/World Building is heavily detailed in this manual.

And honestly, I don't want the MM stat block locking me into anything in particular with my Dragons and Devils. Out of Combat, world moving/manipulating stuff is HIGHLY campaign specific.
One person might use dragons like they are in some movies (big scary animals that are very cunning.. but interact with everyone through combat only, to be killed, survived or captured according to the story). Others might want their Dragon to be a major influence in the campaign story, where they will shapeshift to influence nearby kingdoms and use magic primarily, and only resort to combat specifically when they face a threat that their magical ability can't handle alone.

Some people want both of those elements in their campaign.


The thing is, the second Dragon type can be accomplished through building it up as an NPC in the world, just like any other major player in the campaign. You don't have fluff in the Human stat block, why would you have anything special for Dragons? It's extremely situational.

The MM stat block should contain what every one of that creature has when in combat. Outside of that, I hope they have awesome tools in DMG to make the iconic monsters memorable.

 

[Lackhand]

It sounds to me that a lot of what people are asking for is "NPC Building Tools", not MM stat block info.

Building a Dragon as an NPC world shaker isn't something that the MM is meant for. That's what the DMG's NPC building rules are for.


I really don't understand the idea of making an adventure where the Dragon is supposed to be some major player in the campaign... only to JUST use the MM stat block and try to wing it from there.

If this creature is supposed to be such a major player, it should have gone through an NPC overhaul. Just like the Orc Warlord isn't going to be "standard Orc + fluff text built into the MM statblock", the Dragon who isn't just an encounter for combat isn't going to be plopped into an adventure using just the MM.



I think we've been so used to using the DMG for nothing but Magic Item reference that we ignore that some elements that we think might be missing are still really there.

If Jennifer Clarke Wilke's blog is any indication, there will actually be a USE for having the DMG around. Also, there might be future use of DMG II, III, IV, etc as well... if NPC/World Building is heavily detailed in this manual.

And honestly, I don't want the MM stat block locking me into anything in particular with my Dragons and Devils. Out of Combat, world moving/manipulating stuff is HIGHLY campaign specific.
One person might use dragons like they are in some movies (big scary animals that are very cunning.. but interact with everyone through combat only, to be killed, survived or captured according to the story). Others might want their Dragon to be a major influence in the campaign story, where they will shapeshift to influence nearby kingdoms and use magic primarily, and only resort to combat specifically when they face a threat that their magical ability can't handle alone.

Some people want both of those elements in their campaign.


The thing is, the second Dragon type can be accomplished through building it up as an NPC in the world, just like any other major player in the campaign. You don't have fluff in the Human stat block, why would you have anything special for Dragons? It's extremely situational.

The MM stat block should contain what every one of that creature has when in combat. Outside of that, I hope they have awesome tools in DMG to make the iconic monsters memorable.

+5 Insightful.

(which is, as opposed to flamebait, +5 inciteful. )

 

[KidSnide]

YMMV, but one of the things I find fun about reading a monster manual is looking at out-of-combat monster abilities and thinking about what sort of plots and schemes the monster could do with that set of abilities. It would be sad if this source of inspiration went away.

 

[LostSoul]

YMMV, but one of the things I find fun about reading a monster manual is looking at out-of-combat monster abilities and thinking about what sort of plots and schemes the monster could do with that set of abilities. It would be sad if this source of inspiration went away.

I think a better place for that information would be in the DMG's chapter on Adventure Design. (Hopefully it will have one.)

 

[Derren]

I think a better place for that information would be in the DMG's chapter on Adventure Design. (Hopefully it will have one.)

This chapter can hardly post informations about all monsters in the MM:
I would gladly sacrifice 10 monsters (the exotic things which I won't use anyway) for out of combat abilities for all the other monsters (if they have them. Zombies or Golems are not known for interacting with the rest of the world in a meaningful way).