Plot Monsters: Give Dragons & Devils Rituals!

[Kaisoku]

When you boil things down, what's the difference between a Dragon wanting to build a lair and protect himself magically... and any other highly intelligent creature found in the MM.

The DMG should have the "Lair living, mastermind NPC building tools" that can be applied to any number of creatures that you might find this useful with.


Right now we are just looking at the Dragon because it's the one entry that is losing it's spellcasting. But if we apply the concepts of the Dragon defending itself... what happens when we move over to things like Illithids, or Beholders, or any number of other potentially world shaking "creatures" that need a lot of magic to stay that way.


I'd rather not have a lot of repeating text in the MM that could be better moved to a single location in the DMG. It also makes more sense located there in a "world building" way.

Going by the Fire Archons description, ecology and other background info, these things aren't going to be written completely out of the MM, so as for making your NPC Mastermind "Dragon-Flavoured", I'm sure we'll still be getting a lot of material to inspire us on the fly as well.

 

[Derren]

When you boil things down, what's the difference between a Dragon wanting to build a lair and protect himself magically... and any other highly intelligent creature found in the MM.

That depends. Some creatures might share the disadvantages of the dragon, but other creatures might have access to a society and do not live solitary which means that (magical) tools and maybe even labor can be bought freely. Also those creatures can craft and use the tools themselves. Dragons, not having opposable thumbs, can't do that.
Such creatures, especially the ones with access to a society, have a much easier time with defending their homes than a solitary creature.
As there are sadly no more good and evil dragons you can't even say that the educated people will know that metallic dragons (or evil dragons using alter self) pose no threat and can be bargained with.

 

[LostSoul]

What Kaisoku said.

This chapter can hardly post informations about all monsters in the MM:
I would gladly sacrifice 10 monsters (the exotic things which I won't use anyway) for out of combat abilities for all the other monsters (if they have them. Zombies or Golems are not known for interacting with the rest of the world in a meaningful way).

The thing is, you don't need all these non-combat abilities for each and every monster. You need advice on how to build the adventure you're looking for.

That advice should come with "Use these monsters for these types of adventures, with these modifications" advice so the new DM doesn't have to go flipping through the MM, looking at each monster's abilities, and then wondering if it will be a good fit.

The abilities of the monster don't matter. It's the play experience that you as DM deliver to the other players. What's the best way to get that play experience? I think it's not in the MM, under the monster stat and colour blocks, but instead in the DMG - where the advice is about techniques to craft the game play you want. Whatever that may be - richly detailed NPCs, intrigue, politics, horror, hack & slash, tactical challenges, puzzles, strategic challenges, exploration, etc.

Now maybe that means campaign building advice - some people don't like to see monsters changing based on the goals of the players, but would rather a more internally consistent world. But that, too, should be in the DMG, where they talk about modifying NPCs (including monsters) so that they can work the way you want them to. An extrapolation of adventure design, if you will.

 

[jaer]

Rules like 'Rule 0' or 'Eldritch Machine' have very little usefulness for me. I mean, it is obvious that as a DM I can change things how I want and to introduce any plot device I consider necessary. These rules are essentially non-rules, but that is not what I look for when I buy a roleplaying game. Rather, I look for actual/real rules for the game.

This is where DM styles differ. I buy the books for rules so that combat is organized, the classes are balanced, and I have a metric for judging what is an appropriate challenge and reward. I buy the book so that I learn how combat is done, how hard a monster hits, and what sort of power is appropriate at certain levels. Those are the things that are playtested, those are the things that are common and true, those are the rules everyone needs to know to use to play the game, in order for it to be a game that everyone can play.

I do NOT need rules to tell me what a devil is doing in its spare time. I do not need rules to tell me the succubus I want as the antagonist can alter her shape to look human or elven. I do not need rules to tell me that the ghost in the haunted castle can close doors and windows and move furniture and cause plants to wilt, walls to bleed, and players to have nightmares of them being stalked and murdered. I do not need these effects to mirror spells or be spell-like or supernatural abilities, nor do I need an rules governing line of sight, line or effect, or anything else to control these. They happen when I need them to in the way that I want them to.

They do not unbalance combat, they do not interfer with the rules others know to play the game. These are environmental and the set a mood. When I need things to behave a certain way to tell the story, they happen that way (much the way most novels do not follow D&D rules perfectly - forcing it can ruin the story). I do need to know the combat stats for the ghost, I need to know what it can do in a fight should the PCs end up in direct conflict with it; I need that by the rules because I need it balanced and appropriate to the PCs power level.

It really is a difference in how we go about setting up our games. Some DMs look at the combat stats and the non-combat things and draw up the creature for that. The look to the books to tell them how to use a creature in the gain, not just in combat. For you, I hope there is enough info in the entry to accomidate.

Others of us just use the rules as written when it comes to mechanical interaction, such as combat. The creature in the world fits in as we need it to, and it is free form in that environment. I don't like my PCs knowning what a creature is when I describe it or knowing what it can do (so annoying when a Nightwalker comes in and they put away their good weapons because they fought one two campaigns ago and know what is coming), so I change the flavor, the description, and the environment as needed so that even old-hat creatures can offer something new and different when encountered by the group. For those of us who play like this, I hope the books have very clear, organized, and detailed combat stat blocks.

I don't feel that these two things are mutually exclusive; it just takes good planning and layout. Guess we'll find out what WotC did we see an example of a monster entry.

 

[Chocobo]

Dragons, not having opposable thumbs, can't do that.

Actually, D&D dragons do have opposable thumbs - at least according to the Practical Guide to Dragons I was reading on Sunday. The same info might also be in Draconomicon...

 

[Kaisoku]

Well, I did say that they could have creature specific info to make your DMG entries more "Dragon-Flavoured".

There's nothing said so far that the Dragon entries don't have "Psychology", "Society", and "Knowledge" blurbs, among other things. These could cover how to play the Dragon in a roleplaying manner, from how they think compared to normal mortals, to how they interact with other creatures and what others know about dragons, etc.

There's a "Creating a Fire Archon" entry... why not a "Building a Dragon's Lair" entry, with a paragraph explaining how particular dragons might create and protect their lairs, etc.


These aren't things we'll see in a Stat block (skills, spells, etc), but would fit fine in a MM entry in later paragraphs. However, it still won't tell you everything you need to know to fit a Mastermind Dragon into your campaign, and really... it shouldn't. That's very unique to the campaign.

However, if you are building a campaign setting, you'd probably start with "I wanna Dragon be a major player here", then look at the DMG on what entails being a Mastermind, and then the Dragon entry for Dragon specifics about the way they do things.



Personally, I think this would go a heck of a lot further in helping the DM than some skill ranks and a spell list.

 

[Roman]

It appears that my wish has been granted: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080114

Here is the relevant passage:

Created expressly by secret makers, the immortal guardians in the Wailing Dwarf take the form of guardian nagas. All nagas are fascinated by knowledge, and most eventually assemble a formidable understanding of rituals and arcane spells, as well as collect powerful magic items. The guardians in the Wailing Dwarf (whose total number is not known) are obsessed with the continued acquisition of magical knowledge and the final resting place (or current wielders) of storied magic items, legacy items, and relics.

Though the guardian nagas in the Wailing Dwarf devote themselves fiercely to their appointed task, they also thirst for new knowledge and are not quick to attack intruders. In fact, they may offer to spare intruders' lives if the intruders can teach them a new ritual or spell, or if they give up a magic item. A naga is compelled by its very nature to guard its appointed secret or object with its life, and thus it never negotiates away access to the windy heart of the abandoned dwarven city. Still, one might be willing to allow intruders to turn back with their lives -- especially if they can offer something worthwhile for its mercy.

Apparently, Nagas have rituals, which bodes well for other iconic monsters having them too.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Actually, D&D dragons do have opposable thumbs - at least according to the Practical Guide to Dragons I was reading on Sunday. The same info might also be in Draconomicon...

Can't remember what Draconomicon says, but in my games, it's always been understood that dragons have pretty dextrous forelegs, and - subject to size issues, like a Huge dragon trying to handle a Tiny object - can do a lot of stuff without problems.

 

[Someone]

To the OP I say: I share your concerns!

Actually, I'd go a bit farther. Give rituals to oozes and spellcasting to fighters and rogues. I'd include more monsters and classes here, but those specifically are the ones I've had problems with on my 3e campaings. When my player's characters invaded a dungeon's portion populated by oozes the poor buggers had no way to know they were coming - I mean, they were caught totally by surprise. They were limited to engulf them and dissolve their equipment and flesh. That's so totally un-oozing, it ruined the whole session. We all agreed the gelatinous cube, at least, should be able to cast some magical wards and counters to the most common spells employed against them.

Same for fighters and rogues. Those get nothing in the magical department - I mean nothing at all. If some rogues want to build a thieve's lair, I dare you to read the class description and find a single magical ability allowing them to move earth or something. That's it, they'll have to build their smuggling ring on the surface and sit on the ground, because they can't even fabricate some chairs. Ditto for fighters: on another ocassion, the party invaded a castle and one player asked: "How did these guys even build the castle? they can't cast Wall of Stone! and this place is full of walls made of stone" I embarrasedly searched my notes and replied I didn't know. It stopped the session and replaced every fighter with mystic theurges. Since they have magic, they can do things.

 

[Derren]

To the OP I say: I share your concerns!

Actually, I'd go a bit farther. Give rituals to oozes and spellcasting to fighters and rogues. I'd include more monsters and classes here, but those specifically are the ones I've had problems with on my 3e campaings. When my player's characters invaded a dungeon's portion populated by oozes the poor buggers had no way to know they were coming - I mean, they were caught totally by surprise. They were limited to engulf them and dissolve their equipment and flesh. That's so totally un-oozing, it ruined the whole session. We all agreed the gelatinous cube, at least, should be able to cast some magical wards and counters to the most common spells employed against them.

Same for fighters and rogues. Those get nothing in the magical department - I mean nothing at all. If some rogues want to build a thieve's lair, I dare you to read the class description and find a single magical ability allowing them to move earth or something. That's it, they'll have to build their smuggling ring on the surface and sit on the ground, because they can't even fabricate some chairs. Ditto for fighters: on another ocassion, the party invaded a castle and one player asked: "How did these guys even build the castle? they can't cast Wall of Stone! and this place is full of walls made of stone" I embarrasedly searched my notes and replied I didn't know. It stopped the session and replaced every fighter with mystic theurges. Since they have magic, they can do things.

I guess its completely normal in your games that dragons enter a town and order some furnitures from the local carpenter and also ask if he is free next month to add another cave to his lair.
After that the dragon strolls through the town when a messenger finds him and tells the dragon that he is required to judge over a land dispute next sunday (the dragon got the position of the judge by careful bribes and threats and wants to use it get into nobility, maybe through marring some nobles daughter).
He then checks on all his agents spread out all over the kingdom and instructs them to search for a suitable bride and to remove any competitor. As all this communication happens instantly without the need to write messages that dragon has still time to commission a new magical item at the local wizard.
At the end of the day the dragon rethreats into his secret lair which location is unknown to everyone and sleeps, knowing that if any adventurer come near this lair (teleporting into it is impossible) he would instantly know it and everywhere traps would come into existence out of nothing.


I hope you see how silly this "If a fighter can do it, the dragon can do it too" argument is.
And when I read the responses of some people about this issue that must be the way the world works.