Point Buy Negative Values

[reanjr]

I personally think -1 per two works best.

3 -> -3
4 -> -2
5 -> -2
6 -> -1
7 -> -1
8 -> 0

 

[reanjr]

Just to clarify...

I'm gonna use this as part of my goal to debunk the myth of the balanced 25-pt. point buy.

Unless of course, my data disproves my hypothesis, in which case it must be suppressed.

A fine example of scientific process.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I personally think -1 per two works best.

Like his, only

3 -> -2
4 -> -2
5 -> -1
6 -> -1
7 -> 0
8 -> 0

 

[RedShirtNo5]

When I permit point buy of stats below 8, I use ThirdWizard's system. -RedShirt

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Making the character worse at something they are already bad is not balanced with making them even better at what they do well. For this reason, lower scores than 8 should not be rewarded imo.

 

[Thanee]

Since Point Buy and randome rolls are not used at the same time, what's it matter? Not all forms of character generation are going to be equal, but each has strengths and weaknesses.

There are DMs who let players choose between 4d6-drop-lowest and PB.

IIRC the average PB for 4d6-drop-lowest is about 29, so PB 28 is more acceptable then.

Also, the balance is with the CR system. Obviously better stats raise what CR you can take on. The 4d6-drop-lowest method is meant to provide an average as is the PB 25 method, which doesn't seem right, since PB 25 is weaker on average than 4d6-drop-lowest.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rystil Arden]

There are DMs who let players choose between 4d6-drop-lowest and PB.

IIRC the average PB for 4d6-drop-lowest is about 29, so PB 28 is more acceptable then.

Also, the balance is with the CR system. Obviously better stats raise what CR you can take on. The 4d6-drop-lowest method is meant to provide an average as is the PB 25 method, which doesn't seem right, since PB 25 is weaker on average than 4d6-drop-lowest.

Bye
Thanee

I agree with Thanee. The use of PB 25 as an average seems to indicate someone who ran the simplistic model of "let's just add up all the possible values of X1+X2+X3+X4- min(X1,X2,X3,X4) for the four rolls X1,X2,X3,X4 and then divide the answer by 6^4. Then we can subtract 8 and figure out how many points people get on average for each stat." The problem is that this doesn't account for hopeless characters, factoring in the fringe case of the poor chap who rolls all 3s. And also even on that estimate they rounded the number down. 4d6 drop the lowest is significantly better than PB. In fact, I rarely see anyone do worse than 25 PB on 4d6 without going hopeless (and indeed, it is quite possible to have more than 25 PB and qualify for a hopeless character reroll). And I have had players with other DMs who allow the two as options, although the players had to fight to be allowed to roll because the DM was killing the PB characters often and horribly.

 

[Thanee]

The other post on that subject.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

In fact, I rarely see anyone do worse than 25 PB on 4d6 without going hopeless (and indeed, it is quite possible to have more than 25 PB and qualify for a hopeless character reroll).

Two of the four characters in my campaign rolled the equivalent of 20 & 23 point buy with their 4d6 roll. The 20 point in particular was very unlucky as her total modifiers only just hit +1 and thus disqualified the reroll option.

Going by core rules, I do believe that 25pt buy is comparable to 4d6 (drop the lowest, total mods of +1, minimum highest of 14). The point buy is lower than the average but it is secure and can be optimized pretty well, even for a stat intensive class like the paladin.

Rewarding characters that dump to boost is just going to result in exploitation - the 25pt buy fighter (str16, dex13, con14, int8, wis12, cha8) will drop Int and Cha to 3 and pump str to 18 & con to 16. Such a character still gets the minimum 1 skill point and will avoid social situations like the plague - just like they would have done anyway.

 

[S'mon]

Random rolling definitely beats 25 PB. A theoretical totally average best 3/4d6 rolled PC would have 3 12s & 3 13s, or 27 PB. Since in actuality they'll likely have stats of 15+ the true result of random rolling is more like 30-32 pts, albeit not as optimised as a 32 PB character. For this reason I agree with Living Greyhawk's approach of using 28 PB, it gives PCs about as effective as the typical result of a 3/4d6 roll.