D&D 5E Point buy or Dice?

[abirdcall]

Other than the 3d6 in order hardcore version which gets some notoriety, I've yet to see someone start promoting a random chargen system that would baseline at standard point buy or even baseline lower than standard.

I'm not really convinced that it's all about playing to weaknesses when the OP's character is basically the equivalent of a level higher because of its stats.

You can do it with cards.

Take the 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s and 6s from a deck of cards. Shuffle. Deal out 6 piles of 3. Those are your stats.

If you want them to be really even then take out a 5 and a 3. Then the sum will always be the same. You will still end up with some variation on point buy since higher stats are worth more but it will be close.

If you split the sum evenly your stats would be; 12 12 12 12 12 12 which is 24 in point buy.

I haven't done the math on the actual average but I'm betting it's pretty close to 27.

 

[SirAntoine]

You could ask the DM if you can pick your stats.

 

[keterys]

I used to not care all that much one way or another, until I realized that rolled characters were above average statistically. Then I studied things a bit more, over the course of years, occasionally checking some odds.

And realized they were _far_ above average. Like beyond the bounds of statistical improbability into stratospheric ridiculously improbable.

Let me know if you've seen any of these:
1) Someone ignore rolls that are kinda crappy, or tries to manipulate dice (rolling one die at a time, or on an insecure surface so you can junk a roll).
2) Don't start recording results until you're ready with that big number, cause you'd just scrap a bad character anyways so why not. I've even seen people who just start by writing an 18, then roll the rest.
3) Escalating dice. 3d6 in order to 3d6 assign to 4d6 drop the lowest to 4d6 drop the lowest roll, to roll two sets and pick one, to roll twelve times and pick 6, to 5d6 drop the 2 lowest, to set one to a 6 anyways to...
4) That one guy who doesn't roll in front of people or rolls quickly while they aren't really watching and rolled an 18 and a 17 and a couple 16 and 15s, oh and that one 10-12 for Charisma to show he's honest.

Or the much more subtle. "Hrmm. This guy isn't that good. Oh well. I charge into battle. I play as reckless as I can, til I die. Then I make a new guy. Til I get better stats and something sticks."

So, yeah, I'm against rolling stats. Oh well.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And realized they were _far_ above average. Like beyond the bounds of statistical improbability into stratospheric ridiculously improbable.

Even in groups that are trying to be basically honest, there are the "official table rules" and then there are the "unofficial table rules".

As a newbie player in one particular campaign, I rolled up my PC and was pretty happy when he came out with the rough equivalent of a 30 point buy character (by 3e tallies). Then I looked around and all the other PCs were ballpark 40 point buy. Hmmm... It was not that anyone was exactly trying to cheat, but I asked about the table rules and was only told the official rules. They had unofficial ways of getting the "right" result, and it was downright eerie (if you were to mistakenly believe that dice were actually paramount) how similar the stats of those high-powered PCs would rate on the 3e point buy scale -- eerie because this was 1e/2e and there was no reason to expect things would work out that way. Unless there was an incremental and methodical arms race that resulted in a truce at some high powered level, of course.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I always make my players roll stats. They roll up three columns of stats and pick the one they want.

This resulted in one player taking the 18 in Wisdom for her Urban Druid, and putting the 7 in Charisma--she lived in the sewer. That was a great character trait that helped define that character in that campaign, and it wouldn't have happened if she had used the point buy system.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

This resulted in one player taking the 18 in Wisdom for her Urban Druid, and putting the 7 in Charisma--she lived in the sewer. That was a great character trait that helped define that character in that campaign, and it wouldn't have happened if she had used the point buy system.

Please do not take this personally, because it is not specifically about you. But I am really unimpressed with all these many stories of wonderful PCs with a low Charisma that helped define the start of their quirky adventuring career. Ain't got nothing to do with rolling, because THAT is certainly something players do all the time with point buy, especially if the DM is a bit flexible and gives even a small reward for extra low low stats.

I want to hear about the long & successful career of the Fighter with a 5 Dex, or the Rogue with a 6 Con, or the Wizard with a 3 Wis. If.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I want to hear about the long & successful career of the Fighter with a 5 Dex, or the Rogue with a 6 Con, or the Wizard with a 3 Wis. If.

I hear you. I saw some of those characters in Basic/1E back in the day. But in those days, about 80% of all characters died before twelfth level.

 

[Kaychsea]

Old enough to have an emotional link to rolling stats.

But everything I run is point buy. It's odd how some of the people who won't countenance starting all "new" characters at 1st level because of the difference in power levels are happy for the same differences to be allowed because the dice say so.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

I used to not care all that much one way or another, until I realized that rolled characters were above average statistically. Then I studied things a bit more, over the course of years, occasionally checking some odds.

And realized they were _far_ above average. Like beyond the bounds of statistical improbability into stratospheric ridiculously improbable.

Let me know if you've seen any of these:
1) Someone ignore rolls that are kinda crappy, or tries to manipulate dice (rolling one die at a time, or on an insecure surface so you can junk a roll).
2) Don't start recording results until you're ready with that big number, cause you'd just scrap a bad character anyways so why not. I've even seen people who just start by writing an 18, then roll the rest.
3) Escalating dice. 3d6 in order to 3d6 assign to 4d6 drop the lowest to 4d6 drop the lowest roll, to roll two sets and pick one, to roll twelve times and pick 6, to 5d6 drop the 2 lowest, to set one to a 6 anyways to...
4) That one guy who doesn't roll in front of people or rolls quickly while they aren't really watching and rolled an 18 and a 17 and a couple 16 and 15s, oh and that one 10-12 for Charisma to show he's honest.

Or the much more subtle. "Hrmm. This guy isn't that good. Oh well. I charge into battle. I play as reckless as I can, til I die. Then I make a new guy. Til I get better stats and something sticks."

So, yeah, I'm against rolling stats. Oh well.

I really want to echo this sentiment, as well as what Hussar brought up.

Every time I see people start talking about rolling vs. point buy, it starts genuine enough. They talk about their systems for rolling, whether it's 3d6 in order, 4d6 drop lowest, dice pools where you roll 24d6 and assign as you want, etc. Then the examples of supposedly "impossible by point buy" characters start to emerge, with their incredibly low 6 Charisma or 8 Int. This is used to show how point buy is soulless and leads to less roleplaying potential than rolling.

But you look deeper, and what do you see almost EVERY. SINGLE. TIME? The 18 and two 16's. The nothing below 14 on any other stat but that 6 Charisma. The point buy value blows standard array out of the water on nearly every story you read. If you dig deeper still, you find out all the exceptions that weren't brought up at the start. Like how this group lets players reroll if other players have way better stats, or how this group rerolls anything lower than +10 modifier total, or how this group requires at least one 18.

Each story just cements my belief that a lot of the pro-rollers are actually cheating out the statistical average of rolling stats. They're throwing off the curve by tossing out the characters that get 13 8 9 10 11 6. Whether admitting to it or not, many rolled stats end up being so far above point buy standards that it's ridiculous every time I hear people accuse point buy of promoting power gaming. Just crazy, every time I see it.

I used to roll stats. I'll be up front about that. I hated rolling low, especially when my friends rolled much better. I loved getting the miraculous 3 18's as much as the next guy. Yet, when I think back, I remember every time my DM let me reroll my array because, "You don't even have a stat above 14." I remember letting my players do the same, because the guy next to them got nothing lower than 15.

I won't antagonize people who say they prefer rolling stats based feel or enjoyment alone. It's when the phrases like, "promotes powergaming," "rolling leads to better RP," begin rolling out that it starts to ring hollow. Point buy is well received because it guarantees an even playing field for every player, it allows customization and the ability to play any class you want without hoping for the right rolls, and it keeps us honest, sometimes even from ourselves.

I think the closest I will ever come to rolling for stats again (or letting my players roll, since I predominantly DM these days) is letting every player roll 4d6 drop lowest six times, then letting the group pick one stat array, and all characters are built with that array. It allows the hope of higher than usual stats, but keeps it fair for everyone.

Sorry for the rant. Been wanting to say this stuff for a long time.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you don't use feats, go for it!

If feats are in play, consider capping rolled scores to 15, much like point buy.