D&D 5E Point buy or Dice?

[Bolares]

I don't know if you got what he meant Herr, but what you said you do with feats is exactly what the book rules.

 

[billd91]

I can see this working in the event that the optimizer gets lower rolled stats than the other players, but this will only be the case sometimes, and potentially not at all. Though now that I think about it, I assume your style of rolling requires you to either assign as you go, or roll in order? Otherwise there would be no difference from point buy, in that the optimizer would definitely put his highest stat in whatever stat is most important to his character.

A lot of people assume there's no difference in optimization between putting rolled stats where you want them and point buy, but there really is a noticeable difference. You may be able to plug a bad roll into a stat you don't need and put a better roll in a stat you have more use for, but you don't get compensation for having a low stat to enable you to raise a stat - unlike point buy. And, yes, that's a real difference. Putting a 6 in Charisma can't increase your chances of having an 18-20 to put in Intelligence. You tend to see less spikey highs and spikey lows and more moderate middles and that tends to reduce the difference between Gumbles the Half-orc and Facey McFacerton the Bard's charisma rolls (for example).

Have you had games you DMed or played in where optimizers were a league above the less rules knowledgeable players due to point buy, or is this more of a hypothetical? I ask, because I'm curious if you think those same games would have still been skewed towards the optimizer if he had been the one to roll the best stats. I think it comes down more to system mastery and rules knowledge than stat array when you start talking about one character outshining the others.

I agree that there is more effect from overall player skill with the rule set and options than stat array, and that's one of the reason I've never considered dice rolling a major issue of imbalance in player experiences. But, yes, I have noticed differences in campaigns I've played in that favor point buy and the rolled attribute games I've run.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

A lot of people assume there's no difference in optimization between putting rolled stats where you want them and point buy, but there really is a noticeable difference. You may be able to plug a bad roll into a stat you don't need and put a better roll in a stat you have more use for, but you don't get compensation for having a low stat to enable you to raise a stat - unlike point buy. And, yes, that's a real difference. Putting a 6 in Charisma can't increase your chances of having an 18-20 to put in Intelligence. You tend to see less spikey highs and spikey lows and more moderate middles and that tends to reduce the difference between Gumbles the Half-orc and Facey McFacerton the Bard's charisma rolls (for example).

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Yes, for sure if you allow "buying down" on a stat in point buy in order to get more points, that can open a whole can of worms. I generally keep to only allowing an 8 in any stat after racials. This means no 8 in a stat, with a racial putting it down to 6. I also don't allow any stat above 18 after racials, which prevents characters with huge disparities in stats. These are my personal changes, so I realize they don't particularly have any impact on your point, which is a valid one.

I do wonder though, if 5E hasn't deviously come up with a balancing factor for such low stats. In the previous two editions, 3.X and 4E, there were only three saves (or defenses in 4E). In 5E, there are six saving throws, and although they don't all come up equally, they CAN in fact be important. For instance, if a player, using point buy, buys down their Intelligence or Charisma to 6, they are going to be in a WORLD of hurt if they encounter Illusions or certain Charisma saves.

Against illusions, which generally require an Intelligence (Investigation) check as an Action to overcome, a character with Intelligence 6 (-2) and no proficiency in Intelligence saves is going to really have a bad day if an enemy illusionist casts Phantasmal Force on him and makes it appear as though a solid cube of steel is surrounding him, or a barbed wire fence.

Basically, 5E actually has ways to make those incredibly low stats show up in play, which was harder to do in previous editions. And of course, a player would have no right to complain if you used said Illusions or Charisma saves on him, because he made the choice of playing such a lobsided character.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm thinking about allowing the following options for stats in my next campaign:

• Standard point buy.
• Standard 4d6 drop lowest, arrange to taste. No re-rolls.
• Trust in Fate: 4d6 drop lowest, in order. If you choose this option, you get a free minor magic item. Roll on Magic Item Table C.
• Old School Hardcore: 3d6 in order. If you choose this option, you don't get a free magic item; but once at any point during your PC’s career, you can make up a badass title for your character, and NPCs will recognize you and refer to you by that title. In addition, you as a player get bragging rights.

 

[abirdcall]

I'm thinking about allowing the following options for stats in my next campaign:

• Standard point buy.
• Standard 4d6 drop lowest, arrange to taste. No re-rolls.
• Trust in Fate: 4d6 drop lowest, in order. If you choose this option, you get a free minor magic item. Roll on Magic Item Table C.
• Old School Hardcore: 3d6 in order. If you choose this option, you don't get a free magic item; but once at any point during your PC’s career, you can make up a badass title for your character, and NPCs will recognize you and refer to you by that title. In addition, you as a player get bragging rights.

Why table C and not F?

I think the Old School method could backfire. People tend to not think through the consequences of gambling until it is too late. It's hard to be Badass TM when you aren't very good at anything.

Point buy is weaker than 4d6 drop lowest. As an offset I would say that if you use point buy you don't have to roll for your hit points each level. Using any other method you do.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

Point buy is weaker than 4d6 drop lowest. As an offset I would say that if you use point buy you don't have to roll for your hit points each level. Using any other method you do.

Point buy is on average going to be weaker than 4d6 drop lowest, but if he really doesn't allow re-rolls, it's possible some characters could end up with stats like 5's and 6's. If you really don't allow re-rolls, or make minimums (like +5 total mod minimum) than 4d6 drop lowest can backfire just like the rest. I'd be interested to be a fly on the wall during char gen for that campaign, just to see what people pick and what rolls they get.

 

[billd91]

I do wonder though, if 5E hasn't deviously come up with a balancing factor for such low stats. In the previous two editions, 3.X and 4E, there were only three saves (or defenses in 4E). In 5E, there are six saving throws, and although they don't all come up equally, they CAN in fact be important. For instance, if a player, using point buy, buys down their Intelligence or Charisma to 6, they are going to be in a WORLD of hurt if they encounter Illusions or certain Charisma saves.

<snip>

Basically, 5E actually has ways to make those incredibly low stats show up in play, which was harder to do in previous editions. And of course, a player would have no right to complain if you used said Illusions or Charisma saves on him, because he made the choice of playing such a lobsided character.

I certainly hope it works out to be a decent solution. My take on a solution to the issue of excessive stat dumping and optimization, in contrast to 4e's solution, is to increase the number of attributes PCs depend on, not decrease or concentrate them. I think that WotC is still over-emphasizing Con, Dex, and Wis saves and that's blunting the change. But I plan on using Cha instead of Wis in a number of circumstances.

 

[Dausuul]

Why table C and not F?

Because I came up with this at work and haven't had a chance to look in my DMG yet and pick out exactly which reward seems appropriate.

I think the Old School method could backfire. People tend to not think through the consequences of gambling until it is too late. It's hard to be Badass TM when you aren't very good at anything.

It's a challenge, but that's the point. The idea of Old School is that you take the risk and maybe wind up playing a character with no stat above a 10; in exchange, you get recognition both in and out of game for taking the (possibly) harder road. That's why I decided not to hand out free magic items for this one. As for whether you can be a Badass(TM) or not, that's really down to how bold and imaginative you the player are.

I think the reason people get unhappy when they roll for stats and get bad results is they feel cheated. They ended up with crappy stats and nothing to show for it. The OSHC method is an effort to change that: Your crappy stats are now a badge of honor. I am actually more worried about the 4d6 options than the Old School one.

Point buy is weaker than 4d6 drop lowest. As an offset I would say that if you use point buy you don't have to roll for your hit points each level. Using any other method you do.

Point buy gives you precise control over how your stats are allocated; 4d6 drop lowest does not. Therefore, point buy should give you a slightly lower outcome on average. I see no reason to give special perks.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Point buy gives you precise control over how your stats are allocated; 4d6 drop lowest does not. Therefore, point buy should give you a slightly lower outcome on average. I see no reason to give special perks.

Not to mention, with point buy, you never have to worry about rolling a 7. Which I always seem to do....

 

[abirdcall]

It's a challenge, but that's the point. The idea of Old School is that you take the risk and maybe wind up playing a character with no stat above a 10; in exchange, you get recognition both in and out of game for taking the (possibly) harder road. That's why I decided not to hand out free magic items for this one. As for whether you can be a Badass(TM) or not, that's really down to how bold and imaginative you the player are.

I think the reason people get unhappy when they roll for stats and get bad results is they feel cheated. They ended up with crappy stats and nothing to show for it. The OSHC method is an effort to change that: Your crappy stats are now a badge of honor. I am actually more worried about the 4d6 options than the Old School one.

I am just cautioning you that you should be sure to let the player know exactly what they are getting into when they choose this option.

They may end up with awesome stats, or they could have some 3s and 4s and as high as a 10 or 12.

I'm not saying your option is bad, it's fun to gamble. Sometimes it is hard to imagine just what losing actually entails (which is part of why gambling is such a problem for some people).

Point buy gives you precise control over how your stats are allocated; 4d6 drop lowest does not. Therefore, point buy should give you a slightly lower outcome on average. I see no reason to give special perks.

The player being able to choose to either roll or take half the die value rounded up is already part of the rules.

I'm not saying you should give a perk to people taking point buy. I'm saying maybe you should take away that perk to people who don't? It's thematic too. If you roll for stats you roll for hit points. If you don't roll for stats you get to take the superior option of not rolling for hit points (and end up with more hit points on average).

Do you normally houserule that players have to roll their hit points each level? Maybe that is where the confusion is coming from.