Point Buy Recommendations

[Shard O'Glase]

1 Thing of interest to me in the character generation method(not that I've come up with a fix) is that Racial balance when it came to stats in design notes that certain stats are more imprtant. For example we all see the 1/2 orcs+2 str but he takes a hit in Int and Chr, because STR is a stronger stat. Yet in the point buy, or roll up method for that matter all stats are equal. I don't know if there is a decent fix for this, and quite frnakly I doubt there is, but it is something I always found as odd.

 

[Berk]

I don't think high stats are overpowered. Especially in games with a lot of roleplaying, where stats take a backseat. I've never started a character on the point-buy system, and I never really wanted to. Let the dice roll as they may. If someone rolls exceptionally high, it's not the end of the world, and he's not going to throw things out of balance. Unless the DM let's it.

CHEER!!!!!!!! =o) =o) =o)

 

[Datt]

The campaign I am currently in we have 90 points to spread across all 6 attributes. So you can have 15s across the board. It is not really like a point buy system because all attributes start at 0 and you have to point points in from there. I guess you could say that you buy them point for point.

 

[Gizzard]

28 points is what I'm told 4d6 drop lowest averages out to after hopeless characters are discarded.

I wonder what system the original PHB computer Character Generator used then? It produced characters in the 40 point range, as I discovered when I started my own campaign and wanted it to be "backward compatible" with the previous campaign.

Anyway, I never noticed us being insanely powerful as 40 point players, but now as the DM, it just seems brutal. First level fighters taking Power Attack/Cleave and just carving their way through all opponents. Difficult to balance too, as these offensive powerhouses still have just 12 or so HPs. One lucky crit and kaboom!

Also, I've noticed a lot of modules and supplements written for a lot lower power levels. I'm playing Freeport and got Cabal:Bonds of Magic for NPCs, and they both are too low powered to use without adjustment. Someone else said ECL + 1.5 or so, I might well buy that.

 

[Berk]

Ummm, power attack at first level is kinda pointless no? I mean it doesn't help that much. Since you can only subtract a number up to your BaB, which at the highest at 1st level is 1.

 

[Kraedin]

I favor a 54 point unweighted system where all ability scores begin at three.

 

[incognito]

I use an 80 point 1 for 1, point buy.

Races that have racial modifiers affect the top end. So Max con for an Elf is 16, max DEX is 20 (thinking of chgning this to double (ie. max CON would be 14 for our BUddy the elf).

We have a human with 16, 14, 14, 14, 12, 10 (and no, the 10 is NOT in charisma). When I looked this up on a point buy, I was shocked that this was 34 (!!) points. I imagined it closer to 30/31 perhaps.

I don;t allow players to go below 8, typically although we have a 7 CHA dwarf, who has been denied permanent magic items 2x (he got potions instead), becasue no one liked him.

My big problem with a 28 point buy is that is is hard on CHA based characters, and Monks.

With the 80- point, I can go with a monk that has 14 STR, 16 DEX, 18 WIS, and a 12 CON, 10 in INT and CHA.

Or a Bard:

10 STR, 15 DEX, 12 INT, 12 WIS, 17 CHA, 14 CON


For some reason, these do not seem broken to me - someone tell me I am out of whack!?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I use an 80 point 1 for 1, point buy.

Races that have racial modifiers affect the top end. So Max con for an Elf is 16, max DEX is 20 (thinking of chgning this to double (ie. max CON would be 14 for our BUddy the elf).

We have a human with 16, 14, 14, 14, 12, 10 (and no, the 10 is NOT in charisma). When I looked this up on a point buy, I was shocked that this was 34 (!!) points. I imagined it closer to 30/31 perhaps.

I don;t allow players to go below 8, typically although we have a 7 CHA dwarf, who has been denied permanent magic items 2x (he got potions instead), becasue no one liked him.

My big problem with a 28 point buy is that is is hard on CHA based characters, and Monks.

With the 80- point, I can go with a monk that has 14 STR, 16 DEX, 18 WIS, and a 12 CON, 10 in INT and CHA.

Or a Bard:

10 STR, 15 DEX, 12 INT, 12 WIS, 17 CHA, 14 CON


For some reason, these do not seem broken to me - someone tell me I am out of whack!?

It's not, but someone will tell you that oh no you could get an 18,18,18, 10,8,8. Yeah something like that could suck, but all that shows is that min/maxers can break any system.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, what it shows in this case is that you're relying on the good will, stupidity, or telepathy of the players to realize the kind of characters you want or don't want.

If you adopt an unweighted point buy and someone comes back with a combat min/maxed character like that, what are you going to do? Curse them out and call them a stupid munchkin then show them the door and tell them not to let it hit them on the way out? Of course, by adopting the system you were the one who told them they could do it in the first place so maybe that's not really fair.

And if that's what you're going to do, when do you decide to go on your anti-munchkin rampage? Even if you ask them up front not to create any "munchkin combat monsters", that term really needs definition. Is anyone with a prime stat of 18 a munchkin? Anyone with two 18s? How about all these characters?

A paladin with str 18, dex 10, con 14, int 8, wis 12, cha 18
A wizard with str 10, dex 16, con 16, int 18, wis 10, cha 10
A fighter with Str 18, dex 12, con 16, int 14, wis 8, cha 12
A fighter with str 18, dex 10, con 14, int 8, wis 12, cha 18

And then for the follow up question? Does the last player become a munchkin if he multiclasses to Paladin or Holy Liberator after getting weapon specialization?

How min/maxed is a player allowed to be before you get upset with him? The unweighted system doesn't answer any of these questions.

The weighted point buy system at least ensures that you won't see 18 18 18 10 8 8 unless you're allowing a really high point buy that would lead you to expect those kind of stats.

It's not, but someone will tell you that oh no you could get an 18,18,18, 10,8,8. Yeah something like that could suck, but all that shows is that min/maxers can break any system.

 

[incognito]

Elder-B,

I would not consider any of those characters tweaked horribly.

I should mention that Paladin;s end up being a prestige class IMC, but they would not have to be for every campaign. Characters use thier skills quite a bit, and an 8 INT Paladin does not have much to work with.

The fighter with the 8 wisdom won't make it past the first Hold Person, not to mention Sport/Listen checks...so no, no problem there.

In the game I run you cannot just take a prestige class that you qualify for, it must be approved by the DM, and worked carefully into the story.

I think the wizard is fairly reasonbly designed: str 10, dex 16, con 16, int 18, wis 10, cha 10, sounds about right, although again, I caution against taking a 10 wisdom.

And mutli-class wise: I have no problem with it, and if I did, it wold be because a CLASS has problems:maybe too front loaded (like the ranger), or penalized to heavily, like the bard, for multi-classing).

Seems like a main issue is, I guess, if you allow in, totally unfiltered, all the official supplements, without considering unbalancing effects they may have in the game, then yes, you do have a problem - then again, look at how many cheesy weapons, feats, and broken spell have come out of these splat-books.

but I'd wager with a 28-30 weighted point buy, I can mutli-class out some horrible prestige class disaster, with optimized skills, feats leveled abilites to be just as munchy as an unweighted buy.

To answer your question Elder: YES! the DM must ABSOLUTELY be involved with character creation.

Not to do so, even with a point buy, leads to every PC to do stuff like beginning play with a wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), if they start at L3 or above.

There are endless ways to be muchy if you say: bring in anything