Point Buy Systems

[Lord Mhoram]

As others have suggested, what kind of system you want to use will depend largely on the people you are playing with and whether or not you can trust them to not act like jerks. Frex, I think that point buy systems provide mechanical flexibility and accommodate breadth of character concept better than class/level systems, but all of the flexibility in the world is worthless if your players exist only to abuse it.

Seconded that.

I've been lucky that I have a group that has been playing Hero together for something like 8 years in the current incarnation, and over 18 in the core group. We all are friends first, and game together for fun. We never get that kind of annoyance.

I really do have a dream group that way.

 

[Particle_Man]

I'm not sure I agree with the "it's always a problem with the player" philosophy, as there are some players I have encountered that do min/max point buy systems and don't min/max non-point buy systems. So there are at least some situations in which the point-buy system, specifically, is the problem, rather than the players (for some players at least).

There is also the possibility of accidentally min/maxing, although here the accent is often on the "min" part, as a player can simply not know that you need to put points in X in order to prevent a major unplanned weakness in your character in situation Y. I call this the "did I leave the oven on?" syndrome. Also, there may not be a good sense of how many points needs to be in Z to be considered "good enough" vs. "not good enough" vs. "way too many points in Z".

A possible solution is to look at the NPCs and example PCs for some guidance, assuming they are legally built. It can give one a rough guideline as to how high certain stats should go, what is a good minimum value for other stats, etc. Then one can branch out a bit and "tweak" these templates a little.

 

[jdrakeh]

I guess what I meant to ask was whether GoO gave it to White Wolf while they were themselves still up and running (perhaps because WW might have better printing, distribution or whatever capabilities), or they'd done most or all of the work, but died as a company, at which point White Wolf took it on and published it instead. Or something like that. Sorry, it's become a bit of a threadjack, almost. Wasn't meaning it to be.

I'm certain that all (or most) of the work on BESM 3rd was complete prior to GOO's public collapse based on design blogs, forums posts, playtest reports, etc. WW bought out GOO's properties after the aformentioned collapse. At that time, it was represented that WW agreed to print the long-awaited BESM 3rd as a service to fans. If you need more clarity than that, I think that you'll need to track down somebody involved in the actual acquisition.

 

[jdrakeh]

I'm not sure I agree with the "it's always a problem with the player" philosophy, as there are some players I have encountered that do min/max point buy systems and don't min/max non-point buy systems.

Said players are making a conscious decision to min/max in the point buy systems. That's on them. Nobody is making that choice for them. They could have just as easily chosen not to min/max, but didn't. This isn't an issue with the system.

 

[darjr]

I'm one of those GURPS lovers. I also like HERO and Savage Worlds (does that count, really?).

I've seen at least one case where someone accidentally min maxed.



As an aside I've also been in a game where my son, on purpose, min maxed his way to an epic elite gardening skill, that actually saved my characters neck. Min maxing isn't always for the wrong reasons.

 

[Wombat]

I've had good and bad games with both point buy and character class based systems, with a slightly higher percentage of the "good" going to the point buy. In the end, however, it is a matter of matching a proper system to a specific setting ... and making sure your players are in line with it.

I have heard complaints about min/maxing against point buys and complaints about straitjackets against class systems -- for my own taste I prefer the point buy, but I can work with either. Heck, I had some really good campaigns under 3e and OD&D. And also under RuneQuest, Ars Magica, Paranoia, and (frighteningly for me) GURPS. and I have seen players abuse every single system set before them as well.

So, matter of taste eventually. As I said, I would probably go for a point buy system first and a class-based system second, but ultimately it is a matter of wedding the right system to the setting, rather than forcing a system to conform to the setting after the fact.

 

[Particle_Man]

Said players are making a conscious decision to min/max in the point buy systems. That's on them. Nobody is making that choice for them. They could have just as easily chosen not to min/max, but didn't. This isn't an issue with the system.

No offense, but I know these people and you don't. They are not saying "I will min/max, muahaha!" they just do it unconsciously with some point-buy systems because there are no guidelines given as to what is "enough" for a particular stat, given a particular number of points to spend. That is a problem, not with the players, and not with the point-buy system itself, but with the presentation of the point-buy system. I think that guidelines as to what is "enough" for stat X, given Y number of points, would be helpful.

That said, of course some people would min/max a point buy system (and for some people, any system!) no matter how well it was presented, and some people will never min/max a point buy system. I am just arguing that there is a third category of people here, based on personal knowledge, that are not deliberate min/maxers (one of them happily played a 3e half-orc sorceror, for example) but do tend to min/max point-buy characters.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

As an aside I've also been in a game where my son, on purpose, min maxed his way to an epic elite gardening skill, that actually saved my characters neck. Min maxing isn't always for the wrong reasons.

I had a character in a game years ago, and I was much more familiar with a particular powerset than the GM was. The game went great, but in the end, when we fought the big bad, my character was out maneuvering the BB because of my min/maxed build, and because of my greater familiarity with this one part of the system. All the players had fun, but I could see the GM was a big frustrated. So I voluntarily retired the character.

I tend to find very efficient builds in Hero, not because I try to minmax exactly, but because I've been playing the system for so long, I automatically see the most efficient build to get the character type I want. My sigline pretty much sums up my attitude.

 

[Greg K]

No offense, but I know these people and you don't. They are not saying "I will min/max, muahaha!" they just do it unconsciously with some point-buy systems because there are no guidelines given as to what is "enough" for a particular stat, given a particular number of points to spend. That is a problem, not with the players, and not with the point-buy system itself, but with the presentation of the point-buy system. I think that guidelines as to what is "enough" for stat X, given Y number of points, would be helpful..

What system were your players having problems with? M&M, BESM d20, GURPS 3e (haven't seen 4e), and, Hero System (for stats in a pre 4e book) (I don't know about 5e and cannot recall regarding 4e)) provide guidelines.

 

[jdrakeh]

They are not saying "I will min/max, muahaha!" they just do it unconsciously with some point-buy systems because there are no guidelines given as to what is "enough" for a particular stat, given a particular number of points to spend.

No offense taken.

The first paragraph of your earlier post (the pargraph that I responded to) only spoke of people min/maxing in point buy systems and not min/maxing in non-point buy systems, the implication being that they chose to consciously act that way. There was no mention of "unintentional" or "unconscious" min/maxing therein.

Having said that, you did mention the phenomena of "unconscious" min/maxing, but not until the second paragraph and then, only as an additional possible scenario by leading in with the words "There is also the possibility" FWIW, I don't doubt that this happens, which is why I did not respond to this later assertion.

Having said that, I'm reluctant to attribute the "unintentional" min/maxing that you describe to game system presentation. I haven't seen many point buy systems that don't include specific examples of what power and or trait ratings mean. Frex, as Greg mentions, the 'big' point buy systems (GURPS, HERO, etc) certainly do.

What game systems were you using that caused you and your players to unintentionally min/max due to a lack of examples and/or guidelines for power/trait purchasing?