D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Maxperson]

LOL. I've done nothing to support my opinion? What solid support do you have? That in your opinion rolling is fair? That's not "support", that's just repeating your opinion endlessly.

I've given the very definitions of both fair and unfair that completely support me, and completely sink you.

I wrote an application to simulate thousands of character being generated then grouped them into "parties" of 6 followed by an application that did a realistic simulation of combat. My simulations show that if you use standard roll 4d6 drop lowest there is a consistent 25% difference in win rates based on the "best" average person in any group and the "worst" .

Which is entirely irrelevant to whether or not rolling is fair or not. Once again, an unequal result from a fair method doesn't make the result unfair. Your empty assertions won't change that.

That's what I did to support my argument. I took the time and effort to quantify how much random results matter for the average group. In my opinion a 25% difference in how much a PC can contribute to the team based on a 1 time roll of the die is a bad thing, and not fair. But I freely admit it's just my opinion.

Exactly. You presented irrelevant "evidence" to support a position that the definitions of fair and unfair simply don't support. All you've done is show that the results are not equal. Yay! You've proven something that was never part of the issue. We're talking about fair and unfair, not equal and unequal.

 

[Tony Vargas]

LOL. I've done nothing to support my opinion? What solid support do you have? That in your opinion rolling is fair?

The effing dictionary definition of 'fair,' and the fact that random generation fits the definition.

sheesh

And, because you're essentially conflating 'fair' and 'balanced' (no FOX news cracks, people) you're in essence letting him deny how imbalanced random generation is by demonstrating that it's undeniably fair, by every definition of fair that could remotely apply. Including 'adequate, but not great.' ;P

I wrote an application to simulate thousands of character being generated then grouped them into "parties" of 6 followed by an application that did a realistic simulation of combat. My simulations show that if you use standard roll 4d6 drop lowest there is a consistent 25% difference in win rates based on the "best" average person in any group and the "worst"

Wow. Sounds significantly imbalanced. But, since who got the better characters was determined impartially - randomly - in accord with rules that applied equally to everyone, not unfair.

 

[Caliban]

LOL. I've done nothing to support my opinion? What solid support do you have? That in your opinion rolling is fair? That's not "support", that's just repeating your opinion endlessly.

I wrote an application to simulate thousands of character being generated then grouped them into "parties" of 6 followed by an application that did a realistic simulation of combat. My simulations show that if you use standard roll 4d6 drop lowest there is a consistent 25% difference in win rates based on the "best" average person in any group and the "worst" .

That's what I did to support my argument. I took the time and effort to quantify how much random results matter for the average group. In my opinion a 25% difference in how much a PC can contribute to the team based on a 1 time roll of the die is a bad thing, and not fair. But I freely admit it's just my opinion.

You? All you've done is huff, puff and thump your chest that you're right and I'm wrong.

Or in other words, Argument #0.

I'm afraid you are wasting your time. The only reality @Maxperson accepts is the one where they are "right" - regardless of facts or even their own prior contradictory statements.

If you want a real show, ask them how Mirror Image should work against the Magic Missile spell.

Or just put them on Ignore and get on with your life.

 

[Maxperson]

And, because you're essentially conflating 'fair' and 'balanced' (no FOX news cracks, people) you're in essence letting him deny how imbalanced random generation is by demonstrating that it's undeniably fair, by every definition of fair that could remotely apply. Including 'adequate, but not great.' ;P

I'm not seeing how he's letting me deny how imbalanced random generation is when I am constantly saying that it's imbalanced, but fair.

 

[Oofta]

Ahh, debating what the definition of "is" is. "fairness" is. I'll just refer you to this link

But fine. I believe rolling gives you unbalanced results which is not a worthwhile goal of any game when it applies to the entire lifetime of the character which in my campaigns is regularly last a year or more. Is that fair? Oh wait ... that word doesn't fit your narrow definition either.

Good thing you don't get to define the word for everyone else in the entire world.

Or ... Argument #0.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm not seeing how he's letting me deny how imbalanced random generation is when I am constantly saying that it's imbalanced, but fair.

Thanks for acknowledging that.

But fine. I believe rolling gives you unbalanced results which is not a worthwhile goal of any game when it applies to the entire lifetime of the character which in my campaigns is regularly last a year or more. Is that fair?

Yes.

Or ... Argument #0.

Think that resolves it, actually.

Balance is a strength of Point-buy and a weakness of Random - relative to eachother, anyway (everyone using Array edges out point-buy in that regard, IMHO, because it's less susceptible to system mastery).

 

[Maxperson]

Good thing you don't get to define the word for everyone else in the entire world.

Dude. You're the only one here who is trying to redefine the word. That fails on its face. You don't get to personally redefine words so that arguments work out for you.

 

[Maxperson]

Thanks for acknowledging that.

You say that as if I haven't been stating and and agreeing with you on that portion since this thread was in single digit page numbers.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You say that as if I haven't been stating and and agreeing with you on that portion since this thread was in single digit page numbers.

Every time Oofta or Satyrn says 'unfair' when they mean 'unbalanced' and we push back, it sounds like we're saying it's balanced. It'd be easy for anyone boosting random generation to take advantage of that potential misunderstanding.

You don't get to personally redefine words so that arguments work out for you.

It can be helpful to spell out exactly how you're using a word if your point is more nuanced or specific than the every-day definition. (And, of course, our favorite game has it's own jargon, both formal by edition, and informal w/in the community).

 

[Lanefan]

... Argument #0.

Is that the internet's version of Rule #0, or do we need a Session #0 to determine this?

Or does it all just add up to nothing?