D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Hriston]

Sure, while you can control a range of numbers, you cannot without cheating control what specific numbers come up. You have zero control over that, which makes it impossible to have picked those specific numbers.

You can control the frequency with which specific numbers come up within that range, which influences the specific result.

If it takes an average of 150ish years for the array to randomly come up once, it's still a colossal coincidence. Other specific sets of numbers being less likely doesn't change that.

But that means every single thing you roll is a "colossal coincidence", because it's even less likely to occur than the standard array. Don't you think that's kinda silly?

There is not one rule that says that the PHB is for adventurers only.

Where in my statement do you think I'm saying that?

 

[Maxperson]

You can control the frequency with which specific numbers come up within that range, which influences the specific result.

Which is utterly irrelevant. Influence does influence allow you to pick the numbers that come up on the dice.

But that means every single thing you roll is a "colossal coincidence", because it's even less likely to occur than the standard array. Don't you think that's kinda silly?

Not at all. Unless there is a colossal coincidence, I will never roll the array.

Where in my statement do you think I'm saying that?

There's not one rule in the 5e PHB that says rolling 4d6-L is for adventurers only.

 

[Hriston]

Influence does influence allow you to pick the numbers that come up on the dice.

No, but it gives you a degree of control over those numbers. It isn't "no control".

Unless there is a colossal coincidence, I will never roll the array.

Oh, I see. You're comparing the rather unlikely event of rolling the standard array to the likelihood that you will get any other result, including truly coincidental results such as rolling all 18's, which will only happen in about 1 in 55 billion rolls. Fair enough.

There's not one rule in the 5e PHB that says rolling 4d6-L is for adventurers only.

No, and again, I haven't said there is. I'm not sure where you've gotten that idea, if that's what you're saying. What the PHB says, according to my reading, is to roll 4d6 drop lowest if you're creating an adventurer and choose to roll for abilities. If you're creating a character that isn't an adventurer, then it doesn't tell you what rolling method to use. You can use 4d6 drop lowest if you want, but the rule-book doesn't tell you to do that.

 

[Hussar]

[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - you might be missing the point though. You most certainly can use 4d6-L for generating NPC's. That's absolutely true. However, if you're arguing that this is the default, then NPC's will be skewed improbably high for stats.

Since your stated goal is realism and believability, it's rather difficult to understand why you would insist on a generation method that is even less believable than standard array for NPC's.

 

[Maxperson]

No, but it gives you a degree of control over those numbers. It isn't "no control".

Which is obfuscation. The claim is that you can't pick number, because you can't control which specific numbers come up. You are stuck with what the dice give you. Nothing you have said changes that one iota.

Oh, I see. You're comparing the rather unlikely event of rolling the standard array to the likelihood that you will get any other result, including truly coincidental results such as rolling all 18's, which will only happen in about 1 in 55 billion rolls. Fair enough.

You're the one who asked what happens when you roll the exact array numbers. It's not my fault if that's so incredibly unlikely to happen to me that it's not even worth consideration.

No, and again, I haven't said there is. I'm not sure where you've gotten that idea, if that's what you're saying. What the PHB says, according to my reading, is to roll 4d6 drop lowest if you're creating an adventurer and choose to roll for abilities. If you're creating a character that isn't an adventurer, then it doesn't tell you what rolling method to use. You can use 4d6 drop lowest if you want, but the rule-book doesn't tell you to do that.

Again, you're taking the position that the designers are stupid. The rules talk about rolling stats for NPCs. The ONLY method of rolling is 4d6-L. Unless the designers are so brain dead that they failed to let the DM know to come up with a rolling method, 4d6-L is the method that they are talking about. it's all there is and not one inkling that the DM needs to come up with a different method. I for one don't think the designers are that stupid, so 4d6-L is what the DMG NPC rules are talking about.

 

[Maxperson]

[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - you might be missing the point though. You most certainly can use 4d6-L for generating NPC's. That's absolutely true. However, if you're arguing that this is the default, then NPC's will be skewed improbably high for stats.

The rules are referring to 4d6-L, which I agree makes for higher stat NPC commoners. That's why I roll 3d6 for them, unless I have a pressing need to make it higher. For instance for a common blacksmith I'd roll 4d6-L for str and con, since he would be more likely to have higher than normal stats in those areas.

Since your stated goal is realism and believability, it's rather difficult to understand why you would insist on a generation method that is even less believable than standard array for NPC's.

I'm not insisting on that. That's simply what the rules talk about, and when discussing the rules, I argue the rules, not the way I personally do things. Take a moment to note the difference between a rules discussion, and a house rules(or a "this is how I do things") discussion. Trying to attribute my rules discussions to how I do things, or want others to do things is a large failing of yours.

 

[Oofta]

You're the one who asked what happens when you roll the exact array numbers. It's not my fault if that's so incredibly unlikely to happen to me that it's not even worth consideration.

Again, you're taking the position that the designers are stupid. The rules talk about rolling stats for NPCs. The ONLY method of rolling is 4d6-L. Unless the designers are so brain dead that they failed to let the DM know to come up with a rolling method, 4d6-L is the method that they are talking about. it's all there is and not one inkling that the DM needs to come up with a different method. I for one don't think the designers are that stupid, so 4d6-L is what the DMG NPC rules are talking about.

The rules do not talk about rolling stats for NPCs. Page 92 of the DMG states

NPC STATISTICS
When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three
main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it
needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the
NPC a class and levels. The latter two options require a
bit of explanation.

...

USING CLASSES AND LEVELS
You can create an NPC just as you would a player
character, using the rules in the Player's Handbook.
You can even use a character sheet to keep track of the
NPC's vital information.​

So yes. If you don't use the first two options and if you roll for ability scores for PCs normally then you can roll for ability scores if you want. It's not the default by any means. in my campaign I rarely manually generate NPCs (I usually modify existing NPCs from the MM or Volo's), but when I do I use point buy.

Of course there's also the little detail that most people think that the devs don't assume DMs are mindless automatons following the letter of the rules. Most people probably assume DMs will do what makes sense for their campaign.

All of which still has zero impact on point buy versus rolling which is still and always has been a personal preference.

 

[Maxperson]

The rules do not talk about rolling stats for NPCs. Page 92 of the DMG states

NPC STATISTICS
When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three
main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it
needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the
NPC a class and levels. The latter two options require a
bit of explanation.

...

USING CLASSES AND LEVELS
You can create an NPC just as you would a player
character, using the rules in the Player's Handbook.
You can even use a character sheet to keep track of the
NPC's vital information.​

So yes. If you don't use the first two options and if you roll for ability scores for PCs normally then you can roll for ability scores if you want. It's not the default by any means. in my campaign I rarely manually generate NPCs (I usually modify existing NPCs from the MM or Volo's), but when I do I use point buy.

Of course there's also the little detail that most people think that the devs don't assume DMs are mindless automatons following the letter of the rules. Most people probably assume DMs will do what makes sense for their campaign.

All of which still has zero impact on point buy versus rolling which is still and always has been a personal preference.

All NPCs have stats. The only question is whether you want to know them or not. If you want to know them, you can pick them, use array, point buy, or roll them. If you roll them the default method is 4d6-L.

And by the way, you just quoted some of the rules talking about rolling for stats. And it talks about it further on the first page of the section there. You can't really disprove my claim that they talk about rolling stats by showing that they talk about rolling stats.

 

[Hussar]

See, the big split here is "all NPC's have stats". In my game, they don't. They do not have any stats. Unless they happen to be needed when dealing with the PC's. Otherwise, no one in my game world has stats.

Just like it says in the DMG. Stats aren't needed UNLESS they are a threat to the PC's. For me, it's not needed, so, they don't have them. Just like I don't need snow tires where I live, so, I don't have them.

This insistence that all NPC's MUST have stats is on you. That's one reading of the rules, but, it's not the only possible one.

 

[Oofta]

And by the way, you just quoted some of the rules talking about rolling for stats. And it talks about it further on the first page of the section there. You can't really disprove my claim that they talk about rolling stats by showing that they talk about rolling stats.

Huh? It doesn't mention rolling for stats. It only give you options for rolling for general abilities, mannerisms, etc.

Which still doesn't say what any of this has to do with point buy vs rolling. One of the options is rolling for ability scores for NPCs if you really want. Or point buy. Or just don't bother with detailed ability scores.