D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Maxperson]

But, it doesn't say they don't need to roll. It flat out states that they don't need stats AT ALL. It doesn't need to say you don't need to roll because, in 5e, you never need to roll. And, just like all your examples, since you don't need it, not having it doesn't really matter.

Dude. "You don't need to roll ability scores for the NPC..." is quite literally the first line of the Abilities section on page 89.

Now, to be fair, I get what you're saying. Like I said earlier, this is just a sidebar of the whole "rules as physics" debate, which will never be resolved. It's a personal style issue. For me, that fisherman catches fish every day, not because of anything to do with the game mechanics, but, because I'm the all powerful author of the setting and what I say goes. Did that fisherman catch a really big fish today? Yup, he did. Jumped right into his boat. Didn't even need to use a net. How do I know that? Because, as the DM, I get to do that.

Right. I'm not saying you have to know what the ability scores are and can just dictate things, but it's a fact that every NPC has them. If they didn't, they would be dead.

 

[Maxperson]

I've already shown how rolling does give you some control over which numbers come up. When you pick 4d6 drop lowest, you're picking a specific range and frequency of numbers. When you pick standard array, you're picking a different range of numbers, and the frequency of the specific numbers in the array is 100%. When you pick point-buy, you're picking the same range of numbers as standard array, but any number in that range can come up depending on which other numbers you pick. The difference isn't between absolute control and no control. Each method gives you a relative degree of control. The difference is that with standard array and point-buy, you can see the specific resulting numbers before choosing the method of generation, so you know exactly what you're getting, relying on the character's karma, so to speak. With rolling, you're relying on the character's fortune, which is different than it being completely out of control. An adventurer has the fortune to have abilities generated by 4d6 drop lowest. A commoner may have the fortune to have abilities generated by another rolling method. (My preference being 3d{2,3,3,4,4,5}.)

Sure, and all of that matters to my claim as much as if you had shown me that the sun will rise tomorrow. It doesn't matter if you can narrow the numbers down to a range, since you don't know the specific numbers that come up, it's impossible to have picked those specific numbers.

Since no specific result of rolling is likely enough to be worth consideration, you might as well choose the standard array.

Incorrect. Since all sets of numbers are incredibly unlikely to come up on any given roll for stats, I might as well choose none of them. Not one set is worth consideration by me.

Did you ever consider that the designers assumed DMs aren't brain-dead and can come up with whatever dice-rolling method that suits them and their campaign?

I know this is not their intent for the following reason. If they had set up the default to be, "DMs have to choose the method of rolling for NPCs", they would have said so. To fail to inform the DMs that the default is for them to come up with a method of rolling is piss poor game design, and I don't think they are brain dead the way some of the others here do. Because they didn't specify otherwise, the default is to roll via the one method of rolling that they provided.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Me too.

 

[Hriston]

It doesn't matter if you can narrow the numbers down to a range, since you don't know the specific numbers that come up, it's impossible to have picked those specific numbers.

I agree. You didn't pick the numbers that result from rolling. The whim of fortune picked them for you. Likewise, however, you didn't pick the numbers that make up the standard array or any of the other 64 arrays that can result from a point-buy of 27 points. The character's karma dictated that those were the available arrays. With different karma, a character could have a different standard array or a different number of points, but barring a houserule, you don't get to decide what the character's karma is.

Since all sets of numbers are incredibly unlikely to come up on any given roll for stats, I might as well choose none of them. Not one set is worth consideration by me.

You don't have to choose one of them. If your table uses point-buy, you could list all possible arrays and roll a d65, taking the array that corresponds to the number you rolled.

I know this is not their intent for the following reason. If they had set up the default to be, "DMs have to choose the method of rolling for NPCs", they would have said so. To fail to inform the DMs that the default is for them to come up with a method of rolling is piss poor game design, and I don't think they are brain dead the way some of the others here do. Because they didn't specify otherwise, the default is to roll via the one method of rolling that they provided.

That doesn't establish intent. You can only infer the authors' intent from what they wrote, and what they wrote amounts to, "You can roll, but what method you use is up to you." If they intended to write something else, they need to issue an erratum.

edit: Also, the intent you're ascribing to the authors isn't compatible with what they've written regarding the average scores of normal humans. If they intended to write what you think they did, they not only failed to write it, but also wrote things that contradict it directly.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree. You didn't pick the numbers that result from rolling. The whim of fortune picked them for you. Likewise, however, you didn't pick the numbers that make up the standard array or any of the other 64 arrays that can result from a point-buy of 27 points. The character's karma dictated that those were the available arrays. With different karma, a character could have a different standard array or a different number of points, but barring a houserule, you don't get to decide what the character's karma is.

That's wrong. If you are selecting specific numbers, which you are when you use point buy or array, then you are by definition picking those specific numbers. Only rolling comes about without such a selection of specific numbers.

You don't have to choose one of them. If your table uses point-buy, you could list all possible arrays and roll a d65, taking the array that corresponds to the number you rolled.

Yes you could, which would result in random selection of arrays, but wouldn't really be point buy at all. It also doesn't allow for the full range of stats available to an adventurer, so I'd never do it that way.

That doesn't establish intent. You can only infer the authors' intent from what they wrote, and what they wrote amounts to, "You can roll, but what method you use is up to you." If they intended to write something else, they need to issue an erratum.

edit: Also, the intent you're ascribing to the authors isn't compatible with what they've written regarding the average scores of normal humans. If they intended to write what you think they did, they not only failed to write it, but also wrote things that contradict it directly.

The bolded portion is neither stated, nor implied. All it says is that you can roll and stops there. The implication, without anything specific to say otherwise, is to use the default method of rolling that the game provides.

 

[Keravath]

Rolling for NPC stats is up to the DM. The specific DM may or may not need them for the role the NPC will play in the adventure. If the DM does decide that stats are needed they can arbitrarily assign them any value or may roll using any system they wish. The suggested rolling methods in the players handbook specifically apply to the stats for player characters though the DM is free to use them for NPCs if they wish. (The DM can use ANY rolling system since it is their game).

Historically, since 1e or even earlier, it has been stated that player character stats are not average .. they are above average for the general population. Several methods of rolling PC and possibly NPC stats were included in earlier editions including the 4d6 drop lowest method explicitly included in the 5e PHB. Based on statements in earlier editions, the 4d6-L was not intended to represent the stat distribution of the general population.

 

[Maxperson]

Rolling for NPC stats is up to the DM. The specific DM may or may not need them for the role the NPC will play in the adventure. If the DM does decide that stats are needed they can arbitrarily assign them any value or may roll using any system they wish. The suggested rolling methods in the players handbook specifically apply to the stats for player characters though the DM is free to use them for NPCs if they wish. (The DM can use ANY rolling system since it is their game).

Historically, since 1e or even earlier, it has been stated that player character stats are not average .. they are above average for the general population. Several methods of rolling PC and possibly NPC stats were included in earlier editions including the 4d6 drop lowest method explicitly included in the 5e PHB. Based on statements in earlier editions, the 4d6-L was not intended to represent the stat distribution of the general population.

Historically, other methods for NPC rolling were given. That is not true in 5e where only one method of rolling is given for the default. NPCs by the rules will use that default since the book doesn't specify that 1) there are other methods, or 2) that the DM should come up with one. Either 4d6-L is what 5e uses for NPCs, or the designers are morons for not writing the rules properly.

 

[MyndkryM]

I like the point buy system. I was introduced to it during 3E and Living Greyhawk, and it just makes sense to me as a player and a DM.

 

[Maxperson]

I like the point buy system. I was introduced to it during 3E and Living Greyhawk, and it just makes sense to me as a player and a DM.

Which is 100% fine. Everyone has a preference, and you should play whichever way makes the most sense for you and gives you the most enjoyment.

 

[Lanefan]

Historically, since 1e or even earlier, it has been stated that player character stats are not average .. they are above average for the general population.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that as far as I can tell every poster in this thread has more or less agreed with this.

Several methods of rolling PC and possibly NPC stats were included in earlier editions including the 4d6 drop lowest method explicitly included in the 5e PHB. Based on statements in earlier editions, the 4d6-L was not intended to represent the stat distribution of the general population.

And this 'ere is the problem. In 1e, while it's not hard-written it's at least strongly implied that the general (human) population are on a 3d6 bell curve for each stat. Since then guidance on how to roll common NPCs has been spotty at best (3e tried; at least it had some guidelines), leaving the following problem:

While we all agree that PCs are intended to usually be above average, we're not given a clear way of knowing what the average is that they're supposed to be above.

Lan-"which, when you think about it, is kind of silly; in that giving decent guidance on this would have taken maybe two or three lines of text in the DMG"-efan