D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Sadras]

And, if you actually want to use stats for commoners, it gets REALLY wonky. Why is EVERY smith massively hugely muscled. Sure, smiths usually are big dudes, but, not necessarily the biggest dude in town every time.

Agree with everything else you have said @Hussar, but if my memory serves me, couldn't you allocate more than 1 proficiency slot to a skill. So for instance your smith has 12 STR, but has invested 3 additional proficiency slots in weaponsmithy (after the intial proficiency buy), therefore it would be 15 (12+3) in the skill. So he could roll 15 or lower. Am I remembering correctly?

 

[Yardiff]

A perfectly average roll on this should in theory generate 4 of each number on the dice, as in 4 1s, 4 2s, etc.

So a dead-on average roll will give for stats:

6-6-6 = 18
6-5-5 = 16
5-5-4 = 14
4-4-4 = 12
3-3-3 = 9
3-2-2 = 7
[2-2-1-1-1-1 - discarded]

Yeah, that's a character I would play every single time - usually as a wizard: Str 9 Int 18 Wis 7 Dex 12 Con 16 Cha 14 - gimme gimme gimme!

Lan-"Int 18 Wis 7 on a wizard-type is probably my favourite combination of stats this game has to offer"-efan

Would this average stat array be one of those mary sue or superhuman characters people in this thread have been talking about?

 

[TwoSix]

Would this average stat array be one of those mary sue or superhuman characters people in this thread have been talking about?

Might be. It would be hard with this method to not get at least 18. It does produce some nicely bifurcated stats, especially if you group high with high and low with low, which is overall more interesting than someone with stats all between 10 and 14.

 

[Yardiff]

It can happen of course with random rolls, the first time I rolled this method I only got 2 6's.

 

[Hussar]

I'd argue that this method though is REALLY swingy. And a power gamer's wet dream. You are guaranteed (pretty much) to be able to min/max to a very great degree. I thought part of the purpose to die roll was to avoid this sort of min/max stuff so you didn't get every character looking the same.

But, with this method, every fighter is going to be within a point or two, if not identical. Same with 2 of any class. At this point, you might just as well point buy with a higher pool, you get the same effect with less dice fapping.

 

[Hussar]

For S&G's, I rolled 4 times on an online die roller using the 24d6 method. Now, average should be 84 total on 24d6. These were my results:

Rolling 24d6
( 2 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 4 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 4 + 6 + 3 ) = 97

Rolling 24d6
( 3 + 3 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 4 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 5 + 2 + 6 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 4 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 1 ) = 80

Rolling 24d6
( 1 + 2 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 6 ) = 75

Rolling 24d6
( 5 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 5 + 3 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 5 + 3 + 1 + 5 + 2 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 4 + 2 + 1 + 5 + 2 + 6 ) = 88

Now, THIS is why I don't like die rolling. That 4 PC party, has a HUGE variance in stats. The two guys with the 88 and NINETY-SEVEN, are sporting bloody high scores. That poor bugger with the 75 does manage to clock in a single 17, but the rest of his scores are pretty sad.

This variance is too much IMO.

 

[Lanefan]

So, let's break these down into actual stats and see what we get. I'll assume we're always taking the highest possible.

For S&G's, I rolled 4 times on an online die roller using the 24d6 method. Now, average should be 84 total on 24d6. These were my results:

Rolling 24d6
( 2 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 4 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 4 + 6 + 3 ) = 97

This gives
6-6-6 = 18
5-5-5 = 15
5-5-5 = 15
4-4-4 = 12
4-4-4 = 12
4-4-3 = 11
[3-3-3-2-2-1 - discarded]

For a total of 97 this could have been far worse...lots of 4s and 5s but in fact fewer 6s than random chance would suggest.

Rolling 24d6
( 3 + 3 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 4 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 5 + 2 + 6 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 4 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 1 ) = 80

And with this one we get
6-6-6 = 18
6-6-5 = 17
5-5-4 = 14
4-3-3 = 10
3-3-2 = 8
2-2-2 = 6
[2-1-1-1-1-1 - discarded]

Lots of 1s 2s and 6s in this one...two very high stats, two very low ones.

Rolling 24d6
( 1 + 2 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 6 ) = 75

This time we get
6-6-5 = 17
5-5-5 = 15
5-4-4 = 13
4-3-3 = 10
3-3-2 = 8
2-2-2 = 6
[1-1-1-1-1-1 - discarded]

Same bottom three stats as the last one but the top end is lower.

Rolling 24d6
( 5 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 5 + 3 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 5 + 3 + 1 + 5 + 2 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 4 + 2 + 1 + 5 + 2 + 6 ) = 88

And for our last trick
6-6-6 = 18
6-6-5 = 17
5-5-5 = 15
5-5-4 = 14
3-3-3 = 9
2-2-2 = 6
[2-2-2-1-1-1 - discarded]

The biggest difference to my eyes between the 97 and the others isn't at the high end but at the low end - all the others have two single-digit stats where the 97 one has a low of 11 - the '97' batch had a lot of 4s and 5s in it. The 75 result is low overall (average stat is 11.5) but not unplayably so - I've certainly seen worse; and the standard array gives an average of 12.0 thus 11.5 isn't outside the realm of reasonable. What also helps is that all those 1s, which really drag down the overall total, end up getting tossed out. It's the 97, with its average of 13.2, that is the outlier here.

What's different between the results here and what one can do with point-buy or array is, obviously, the low-high range one is likely to get within a character. Three of these have a either a 6-17 or 6-18 range, much wider than the 8-15 allowed by array or point buy.

Interesting.

Lanefan

 

[Arial Black]

How does the rifleman's creed go? "This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine."

"This is my scenario. There are many like it, but this one is mine."

In other words, the fact that there are other possible options does not invalidate my results. If Lowe and Max took shield master at 4th level, that would just mean that they have a lower chance to hit or fewer hit points because they didn't increase ability scores.

Don't like my scenario and results? There's nothing I can say or do. If you have a better way of doing a comparison other than restating your opinion feel free to do so.

I've been off the Internet for a week, and I've just read the 20 pages of this thread that I missed.

I can't be bothered to go through all 20 pages to find the post in question, but one post that made a point that motivated this reply was on the subject of "people who roll are only doing so to get Mary-Sue". I won't bother to refute this idea as it should be obvious it refutes itself, but the specific point was made about the CR system being all messed up if high stat PCs are used, and the array '16, 16, 14, 12, 12, 12' was derided for being too high for the system to handle without breaking.

Let's take your scenario idea and have two unarmoured barbarian humans instead of two fighter dwarves that have already made so much money from adventuring that they can both afford full plate armour at 4th level(!)....would you think that this would be at least as 'fair' a test as your own?

Let's say that the 'so unplayable it's broken' array mentioned above was given to one twin, ending up with: Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 12.

Now compare this with the other twin, made with point-buy: Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 8. Is there any difference at all when they do what they are intended to do: solo a hell hound, using your program?

And yet, the first is deemed as so good it's breaking the system. Point-buy will not let you buy it, but it allows for more concepts.

 

[Hussar]

But, that's only true if your concept is "better than everyone else around". Not really a concept I'm all that interested in the game supporting. Sure, those two barbarians might fight that hell hound the same. Of course, the first barbarian will notice the hell hound more often, and will have a better chance of knowing that it is a hell hound and not some other creature. So, other than just being "better" than our point buy barbarian, what concept do you have in mind, [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION]?

And, note, using the suggested die rolling system, the "fairly" created barbarians, one has 18,15,15,12,12,11 and the other has 18,17,15,14,9,6. So, the fact that our first barbarian, human, now has 19,16,16,13,13,12. And that's considered fair and balanced? Actually, with a bit of switching, I actually get, after racial adjustments, 18,18,15,13,13,12. Wahoo! I win the dice lottery. What a great player I am.

 

[Hussar]

S&G's again, but, figured I'd see what happens in a big group. Group of 8.

Rolling 24d6
( 6 + 4 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 5 + 1 + 6 + 3 + 6 + 4 + 6 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 1 + 6 + 6 ) = 103

Rolling 24d6
( 1 + 1 + 6 + 3 + 4 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 3 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 2 ) = 72

Rolling 24d6
( 6 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 6 + 4 + 6 + 2 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 1 + 4 + 6 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 3 ) = 96

Rolling 24d6
( 2 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 4 + 6 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 5 ) = 80

Rolling 24d6
( 3 + 5 + 3 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 6 + 1 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 4 + 5 + 2 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 4 + 4 ) = 76

Rolling 24d6
( 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 6 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 3 + 5 + 4 + 1 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 3 + 6 + 4 + 1 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 5 ) = 84

Rolling 24d6
( 1 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 6 + 2 + 5 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 4 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 3 ) = 76

Rolling 24d6
( 2 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 6 + 3 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 3 + 4 + 2 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 2 + 4 + 3 + 6 + 2 + 2 ) = 74

Yeah, that's a great idea. No variance there at all. O.O Yikes. Low ball of 72 high ball of 103! Nope, there's going to be no noticeable difference in these PC's whatsoever.