D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

Oofta

Legend
Yes NPCs build like PCs can reach 20 in stats, this is why they are considered special NPCs. I've said that all long. Adventurers (PCs), Monsters, and Special NPCs can have stats of 20 or in the monsters case over 20. All others have stats from 3 and maxing at 18. That's what is says on pg 7.

Not that I'm disagreeing with the max 18 for most NPCs, but am I missing somewhere that it says 3 is a minimum?

I admit that was my assumption as well, I just can't find it anywhere. But I could be blind. :cool:
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
5e PHB as transcribed by Yardiff said:
pg 7

Every character and monster in the game has capabilities defined by six ability scores. The abilities are Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, and they typically range from 3 to 18 for most adventurers. (Monsters might have scores as lowas I or as high as 30.)
And that little bit right there answers all these questions...well, sort of except one.

Every character ... defined by six ability scores. 'Every' incudes NPCs, so we're now clear that all NPCs have stats - we just might not know what they are.

Adventurers range from 3-18. This is important because of what it does not say: that adventurers start out with a range of 8-15. This tells me a 3-18 range, regardless how it might be arrived at, is the assumed default...and while there's various ways of arriving at a 3-18 range including pick yer own, linear d20 ignoring 1-2-19-20, 5d4-2, and so forth the 3d6 method is the most ingrained and thus the most likely to be used. More relevant to the overall discussion, however, is this: as neither point buy nor array as written can possibly allow the default-as-defined 3-18 range then neither can be the game's default character generation method...not unless the writers want to contradict themselves; also a long and storied tradition in D&D. :)

Monsters [range from 1 to 30]. It's good that this is mentioned as it explicitly allows for stats outside the 3-18 (or 3-20) range.

But what's missing here? They hit adventurers (both PC and NPC), they hit monsters, but in a rather glaring oversight they don't hit non-adventuring non-monster NPCs. Or do they...?

5e PHB as transcribed by Yardiff said:
pg 173

A score of 10 or 11 is the normal human average, but adventurers and many monsters are a cut above average in most abilities. A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches. Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30.
And here's the answer. Saying "A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches" and then going on to differentiate adventurers (they can go to 20) rather strongly implies that by "a person" they mean any ordinary inhabitant of the game world...which includes non-adventuring NPCs.

It's not much of a reach to extrapolate from this that the implied low is 3 and the implied range is 3-18 but for some reason this isn't made clear. What is said, in the earlier quote, is that only monsters can get down to 1, meaning non-adventurers have an implied low of 2? Messy.

Yardiff said:
Adventurer NPC are build like PCs so eepso faartso bango bongo they're special BECAUSE they are build like PCs not normal NPCs.
This hasn't ever been in question, I don't think. The questions are around how to generate non-adventuring NPCs and-or what model (if any) the overall population assumptions are based on.

Lan-"a clarification from Mearls or Crawford would help here"-efan
 
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Jacob Marley

First Post
Misprints happened all the time in 1e and 2e. I'm betting that was a typo and it was supposed to be 8, not 18.

I'll take that bet! The rest of the stat block is only possible with an 18 Dex. He's a level 10 Thief with an AC of 2. You need a minimum Dex of 9 to be a Thief, and he only has +1 Leather and a Ring of Protection +1 to adjust his AC. In order to get an AC of 2 with what's written in his stat box he needs an 18 Dex.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Exactly, the context is completely different. The math and abilities set up of 5e is very different from 1e where stats mattered much more.
To be fair - and I certainly would like to be fair - a three-point difference in, say, DEX, in 5e matters to the tune of +1 or +2 to your AC, depending on the even/odd split, while, in 1e, how much a 3-point difference matters to your AC depends on what it was to begin with. Between a 9 and a 12? Not at all. Between 14 & 17? Three full points.

I'm not sure how that's "mattered more." High stats were more important than middle-of-the-road stats? I mean, if you're rolling 4d6 and got 16,16,14,13,12,9 vs 16,16,10,10,10,10 in 1e, there's not a big difference, but in 5e there is; conversely rolling 18(00),17,15,13,11,9 vs 17,16,14,12,12,12 is a huge difference in 1e, while a fairly minor one in 5e. Doesn't seem like a terribly important point. They're a bit different, sure.

I think "less consistent" might capture that difference more accurately...

Edit: ... oh, there's another sense of stats 'mattering more' that's coming up more often. For instance, if you were trying to recruit henchmen, your CHA mattered in 1e, including otherwise minor differences between a 9 and a 12, for instance. OTOH, if you were trying to do almost anything else, it didn't. If you weren't a Magic-User, INT only mattered for the number of languages you spoke. If you weren't a cleric, your WIS really didn't count for much, etc...
In 5e, every stat has saves and other checks that use it, so it seems like stats matter plenty.


I'll take that bet! The rest of the stat block is only possible with an 18 Dex. He's a level 10 Thief with an AC of 2. You need a minimum Dex of 9 to be a Thief, and he only has +1 Leather and a Ring of Protection +1 to adjust his AC. In order to get an AC of 2 with what's written in his stat box he needs an 18 Dex.
Well, then, he must be a master of disguise!

(No, wait, in 1e only Assassins - OK, and Illusionists, sorta - could be masters of disguise...)
 
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Oofta

Legend
Did you read pg 7 of the PHB? Second paragraph under the head "The D20".

Like I said. Blind as a bat. :cool:

Although it does state that the range is typical, which means there can be exceptions. Which makes sense - there's a difference between someone who's really, really clumsy and someone who has ALS and would have a dexterity of 1.
 


Yardiff

Adventurer
I'll take that bet! The rest of the stat block is only possible with an 18 Dex. He's a level 10 Thief with an AC of 2. You need a minimum Dex of 9 to be a Thief, and he only has +1 Leather and a Ring of Protection +1 to adjust his AC. In order to get an AC of 2 with what's written in his stat box he needs an 18 Dex.

It could also be that the description of you character came first then the stats were rolled and the description wasnt updated.


Find more like this and then the thief wont be an outlier.
 


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