D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Lanefan]

You look at NPCs and see numbers. Everything seems to boil down to a number to you. It doesn't need to. I only use specific numbers when I need them for game mechanics.

It's a different approach. I envision a fantasy world first with mechanical implementation to enable interaction with that world. I get the impression you look at everything as a game first - numbers, ability scores, so on first and then add the trappings of a fantasy world on top. It's like a game of Risk with more complexity and flexibility.

You need both. The numbers drive the narrative, and the narrative drives the numbers; and when you're only given one of those things to work with you need to be able to - and are kind of expected to - supply the other if required.

So if an NPC is described as "brawny, a bit dull-witted, resilient but clumsy, and a bit grubby-looking", that vaguely tells me what five of the underlying numbers might be: St 15 In 8 Wi ? Dx 8 Co 15 Ch 9.
By the same token, if an NPC is described only as St 15, In 8, Wi 11 Dx 8 Co 15 Ch 9 that gives me some groundwork on which to build the narrative description I'll relate to the players if they meet him.

The problems come, as others have already pointed out, when a module gives you both types of description for the same NPC and they don't agree. In these cases all you can do is arbitrarily pick one and ignore the other.

And what both types of description don't give are any idea as to height and weight/build, which are usually the first things noticed about someone.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

I remember that table!

And what was the first step, before referencing that table?

That's right! Roll those dice! Then adjust for race. Then use the table to make adjustments.

Interesting interpretation.

We always read that table as written as if those numbers were just like stat requirements - in other words if you didn't have Str 8 you couldn't be a Dwarf at all, and an 18 Int banned you from Half-Orc.

So we changed it, and came up with an elegant-if-complicated chart to do the adjustments from 3-18 to whatever the racial bell-curve is for any given stat, and it skips your second step as the chart in fact represents your racial adjustment. (we also toned down the racial bonuses a bit - Elves in particular were bang out of line)

If anyone's interested, here's a link to the chart we use:

http://www.friendsofgravity.com/gam...lue-book-in-html/decbluebook2.html#conversion

Lanefan

 

[Oofta]

You need both. The numbers drive the narrative, and the narrative drives the numbers; and when you're only given one of those things to work with you need to be able to - and are kind of expected to - supply the other if required.

So if an NPC is described as "brawny, a bit dull-witted, resilient but clumsy, and a bit grubby-looking", that vaguely tells me what five of the underlying numbers might be: St 15 In 8 Wi ? Dx 8 Co 15 Ch 9.
By the same token, if an NPC is described only as St 15, In 8, Wi 11 Dx 8 Co 15 Ch 9 that gives me some groundwork on which to build the narrative description I'll relate to the players if they meet him.

The problems come, as others have already pointed out, when a module gives you both types of description for the same NPC and they don't agree. In these cases all you can do is arbitrarily pick one and ignore the other.

And what both types of description don't give are any idea as to height and weight/build, which are usually the first things noticed about someone.

Lanefan

If I ever need stats for that brawny bouncer, I'll figure it out at that point. Probably just grab the stats from one of the NPCs in the MM. Until then? I don't care. As far as I know the muscles are made of wool under his loose fitting clothes to intimidate the patrons of the bar.

That wise-cracking, quick-witted informant? No clue what his intelligence or wisdom score is. It could easily changed based on how I end up portraying him based on the RP at the table and how well that burrito from lunch is sitting. That slack eyed buffoon in the corner? Maybe he's really a highly skilled assassin that I decide to throw in because the group is getting careless with intel in the bar.

Height and weight? Doesn't matter. Tall and gaunt? Well, what's tall? Are we going with a somewhat historically accurate where 5'9" was considered tall? Is someone that's 6'5" practically a giant? Historically, yes.

Call it the quantum-uncertainty principle of NPC ability scores. Or maybe Schrodinger's Stats. Until you need a number, it doesn't exist.

 

[Maxperson]

Not if the point was to get through the door quietly, they didn't. Or get into the chest without breaking the potion bottles or whatever that might be inside.

Yep! In those cases you just ended up leaving or not getting inside unless the thief got lucky.

And lockpicking is just one example, there's the other thief 'special' abilities that 1e locked into class in a paroxysm of niche protection. Then there's effing spells.

Yeah. The wizard kept a knock or two handy just in case the thief failed and everyone else failed to get the door open with stats.

Claiming that class didn't matter in 1e compared to stats is sheer overwhelming nonsense, Maxperson, it's so far from right, it's not even wrong. Compound that by pretending stats are unimportant important compared to class in 5e, when BA makes stat bonuses very important even at high level, and every check can be made with or without proficiency, and, really, you're not even trying to make a point, you're just pushing back blindly with no thought whatsoever, from some sheer, perverse, irresistible compulsion to contradict.

I didn't make that claim. I claimed stats were much more important in 1e than in 5e, and they are.

So the expectation that the fighter's STR is going to be over-written by a magic item is somehow evidence that the stats he rolled matter? And, y'know, the gauntlets were a CFT item...

Yeah, the Thief was a terrible class, no argument. No doubt one reason it had such draconian niche protection.

Yeah, but the fighter most often ended up with it in my experience, unless the fighter already had 18/00 or close to it.

 

[Lanefan]

If I ever need stats for that brawny bouncer, I'll figure it out at that point. Probably just grab the stats from one of the NPCs in the MM. Until then? I don't care. As far as I know the muscles are made of wool under his loose fitting clothes to intimidate the patrons of the bar.

When there's words-descriptions provided I assume they're accurate unless something specifices differently. In your example "brawny" would tell me there's a decent Str score involved unless and only unless something else in the description told me the muscles were fake and - I hope! - gave me an actual Str score to replace the assumption.

That wise-cracking, quick-witted informant? No clue what his intelligence or wisdom score is. It could easily changed based on how I end up portraying him based on the RP at the table and how well that burrito from lunch is sitting. That slack eyed buffoon in the corner? Maybe he's really a highly skilled assassin that I decide to throw in because the group is getting careless with intel in the bar.

Notwithstanding that this gets into the messy question of DMs having things done up ahead of time vs. making them up on the fly; as soon as you start making people not be what they appear to be you'd better have the real stats firmly nailed down - if only in your head - because at this point only you know the in-game reality and might at some point have to speak to it later.

Height and weight? Doesn't matter. Tall and gaunt? Well, what's tall? Are we going with a somewhat historically accurate where 5'9" was considered tall? Is someone that's 6'5" practically a giant? Historically, yes.

When the cops ask you to describe someone, what are the first three things you'll probably give 'em? That's right: gender, height, and weight/build. So it only makes sense to lead with those when describing an NPC of a race familiar to the characters; and describing those might well lead into describing things that can be mirrored in some of the 6 stats.

As for a comparitor, we have height-weight tables for the different races in our roll-up book.

Call it the quantum-uncertainty principle of NPC ability scores. Or maybe Schrodinger's Stats. Until you need a number, it doesn't exist.

I'll counter with the number always exists, you just don't know what it is until you need to know.

Lan-"was Schrodinger sitting over Gygax's shoulder when he designed this game?"-efan

 

[Maxperson]

All you did was state your opinion not point to any pg/text.

This is from the PHB and the PHB ONLY deals with building PCs.

ABILITY SCORE INCREASE
Every race increases one or more of a character's ability scores.

The only time this would come about in the DMG is when you build an NPC as a PC.

You read into lots of stuff one way and I read into them another way but we're both 'reading into' things.

It's right there on page 17 under Racial Traits.

The description of each race includes racial traits that are common to members of that race. The following entries appear among the traits o f most races.

Not common to PCs. Not common for special members. Common to members of that race. That includes NPCs. NPCs, all of them, are members of the race and abilities, which includes stat bonuses, are common to them. I'm not reading into anything. It says it in literal black and white.

 

[Yardiff]

Guess I skimmed right passed that. Shrug.

 

[Oofta]

When there's words-descriptions provided I assume they're accurate unless something specifices differently. In your example "brawny" would tell me there's a decent Str score involved unless and only unless something else in the description told me the muscles were fake and - I hope! - gave me an actual Str score to replace the assumption.

Notwithstanding that this gets into the messy question of DMs having things done up ahead of time vs. making them up on the fly; as soon as you start making people not be what they appear to be you'd better have the real stats firmly nailed down - if only in your head - because at this point only you know the in-game reality and might at some point have to speak to it later.

When the cops ask you to describe someone, what are the first three things you'll probably give 'em? That's right: gender, height, and weight/build. So it only makes sense to lead with those when describing an NPC of a race familiar to the characters; and describing those might well lead into describing things that can be mirrored in some of the 6 stats.

As for a comparitor, we have height-weight tables for the different races in our roll-up book.

I'll counter with the number always exists, you just don't know what it is until you need to know.

Lan-"was Schrodinger sitting over Gygax's shoulder when he designed this game?"-efan

The numbers don't matter unless you need them. If they don't matter, they don't exist. Just because someone isn't what they appear to be at first glance, doesn't mean the world is inconsistent it just means PCs can't make assumptions. Of course I've also been accused of somehow running a Cthulhu game without sanity points so there is that.

What's in that chest in the corner? Who knows. Maybe it's empty. Maybe it's full of gems. Maybe there's an undead cat inside. I no more need to decide what's in every chest/barrel/bureau than I need to know NPC abilities.

As far as making up things on the fly you are absolutely correct. I make up things on the fly all the time. I've been accused of railroading because I've always been able to do it without people realizing that I'm doing it. It does take a little preparation to run dynamic games, but I think it's worth it.

But what does any of this have to do with point buy or rolling for ability scores?

 

[Tony Vargas]

"was Schrodinger sitting over Gygax's shoulder when he designed this game?"

He both was - and wasn't.

 

[Maxperson]

The numbers don't matter unless you need them. If they don't matter, they don't exist.

I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but just as someone I've never met and exists to me purely over the internet, you don't matter to me. Does that mean that you don't exist? Of course not. That would be just as silly as claiming that numbers don't exist for the NPCs just because they don't matter. They exist, you just don't ever use them.

As far as making up things on the fly you are absolutely correct. I make up things on the fly all the time. I've been accused of railroading because I've always been able to do it without people realizing that I'm doing it. It does take a little preparation to run dynamic games, but I think it's worth it.

This is how I run games, too. I improvise a LOT.