D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[ccs]

If you really want to dissuade cheaters, try letting the players pick their own stats. Unless you have particularly brazen players, or they're just sociopaths, they're not going to give themselves anything crazy. Why? Because they'll have to own up to it; they can't just say "Oh yea, the dice GAVE me these 2 18s". Even if they do give themselves 2 18s (unlikely), they'll give themselves at least 2 super low dump stats because they feel guilty.

I'll do it. I'll give myself 6 18s (+ racial bonuses - I'm thinking regular Human, that way I'll have straight 19s).
I'll play the worlds mightiest mortal:

 

[Oofta]

I'll do it. I'll give myself 6 18s (+ racial bonuses - I'm thinking regular Human, that way I'll have straight 19s).
I'll play the worlds mightiest mortal:View attachment 88019

You'll play a little kid with delusions of grandeur?

 

[Caliban]

You'll play a little kid with delusions of grandeur?

Doesn't that describe most of us?

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[Oofta]

Doesn't that describe most of us?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using EN World mobile app

Hey now, I may be very immature, but there's no reason to imply I'm a little kid!

 

[Tony Vargas]

I disagree.

I was agreeing with you. You said the things you saw as benefits could be seen as negatives to some, I was just illustrating that you were correct in that assessment.

The game is rife with realism. Swords have edges.

They also have points, but can't do piercing damage.

Spears are pointed and can be thrown.

But don't have reach.

It's more of a sliding scale and I like a bit more than the game gives me by default.

Meh. More of the same 'benefits/negatives.' You can see it as a 'sliding scale,' I see it as a double-standard. ;P

As for for player agency, rolling doesn't undermine it at all, or if it does, so do arrays and point buy. True player agency would be just picking whatever stats you want and any limitation whatsoever would undermine that.

Player agency isn't simply getting to do whatever you want, it's making meaningful decisions among viable choices. Balance supports that, rolling undermines balance (but, can't stress this enough: is still /fair/.)

If I wanted random, but fair results I could just roll for which stat array I used and then (if I really wanted random) roll for which number went to which ability. Would that not satisfy the whole "I want random stats"?

No. It doesn't give the chance of having outright better or worse stats than the next guy, overall.

Unless of course all numbers are all the same (which is statistically unlikely with most methods).

Ironically, it's not actually possible with point build/array, but could, however unlikely, happen with random rolls.

 

[Hussar]

It's not even flawed. It's realistic or uncontrolled(partially of fully). That can result in a flawed character, or one with no flaws, at least with regard to stats. I find it fun to play what I get, though as you pointed out earlier, there are ways to modify that so that horrible stats can't happen.

One group I play with uses a minimum of 76 points rolled. So an average of 13, 13, 13, 13, 12, 12. We don't get to keep re-rolling until we get there, though. Suppose I roll 16, 12 7, 12, 14, 13. That's 74 points. At that point I would roll 1d6 twice and add one to the stat rolled, so if I ended up with a 1 and 5, the 16 would go to 17 and the 14 to a 15.

How I run my games is with that minimum, but instead of 4d6-lowest on all 6 stats, you get 3d6 for 2, 4d6-lowest for 2, and 5d6-two lowest for two and you can swap any pair. It gives a bit more control, while still maintaining enough random to be unpredictable.

I get it, but it's just not for me.

So, you're idea of "realism" is to choose a chargen method that will nearly always result in characters that are better than the standard array. Is that correct?

See, that's the *ahem* elephant in the room. Die roll methods will almost always result in higher value characters than standard array. For proof, I'd ask you to canvas your groups. Yup, there will be that one guy who has a lower than standard array, but, that's offset by the other nineteen characters that are all higher.

And this is "realism"?

Look, I get that people like random generation. Fair enough. But, at least be upfront about it. People are randomly generating their characters so they can get higher powered characters.

 

[Oofta]

No. It doesn't give the chance of having outright better or worse stats than the next guy, overall.

I simply would not want to play in a game where that is a stated (or implicit) goal. I just don't see the point.

 

[Maxperson]

I get tired of saying this so just a blanket caveat from now on: what you do is OK for you.

If I wanted random, but fair results I could just roll for which stat array I used and then (if I really wanted random) roll for which number went to which ability. Would that not satisfy the whole "I want random stats"?

No. Not really. Arrays don't allow for the same range of stats as rolled stats, do. Nor do they reflect a realistic array of stats.

 

[Tony Vargas]

See, that's the *ahem* elephant in the room.

XP for daring to go there.

I simply would not want to play in a game where that is a stated (or implicit) goal. I just don't see the point.

Sometimes you get to play the 'flawed character' whose not as good as everyone else (though, really, you can always roll up a fighter ;P ), sometimes you get to play das ubercharacter. It's a kind of variety you can't get in a balanced game, but it's not being unfair to anyone who signs up for it. It's very appealing, much like gambling, really.

But, like gambling, not appealing to everyone.

 

[PeelSeel2]

In the original edition of D&D rolling stats meant you could see how good your character was vs other characters with hardly any bonuses. The average of 3d6 is somewhere from 8-12. Between AD&D and Basic D&D a stat discrepancy started appearing. AD&D had an esoteric progression rewarding high stats, and Basic D&D leavened the curve with a 3d6 from -3 to +3. In Basic D&D, the curve worked; just straight roll no racial or other bonuses. 2e Ad&D maintained the esoteric curve that rewarded high stats. Come third edition, they applied a linear progression to a curved roll with potential of -4 to +4 with racial and other bonuses on top of that. Fourth and Fifth edition has kept the linear curve. Rolling dice does not work with that. Hence the value of the predetermined stats with racial bonuses. Everyone is balanced. Basic D&D had a balance due to a statistics curve. If you play 5th, 4th, 3rd, and roll stats, you are going to have some swing. If you play 5th, 4th, 3rd with set basic stats, the curve will be leavened, and it will be less 'swingy'. Plus the added bonus with some players in that everyone starts off the same.