D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

So, mechanics only apply to world building when it's convenient.

What are you talking about? You should clarify since it seems you are failing to understand yet something else.

I just wanted to thank you for the mike drop moment back there. You freely admit that you die roll in order to score higher stats for your character and not "gimp" yourself by using a standard array.
First, I freely admitted to letting my players who like higher stats have higher stats. I said nothing about my characters. I will use any rolling method the DM instructs. I've used everything from 3d6 straight down no swapping or re-rolling, to 5d6 drop the lowest two for all stats. I really don't care since stats don't mean much to character advancement. Second, I said YOU gimp yourself with a standard array. It keeps you from possibly having a stat as high or as low as the local shoe maker. The reason I don't use arrays has zilch to do with power level. I've told you more than once that I won't use an array because arrays cannot be realistic to the point that I like to enjoy the game.
 

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So, mechanics only apply to world building when it's convenient. Interesting. :uhoh:

I just wanted to thank you for the mike drop moment back there. You freely admit that you die roll in order to score higher stats for your character and not "gimp" yourself by using a standard array. Thanks bud. It's good when honesty comes out.

9 Hells yes!
Given the option I'll always roll. And if not given the option I'll ask for it.
True, I LIKE generating my scores randomly. It's one of those things that makes D&D D&D. "Realism" doesn't have anything to do with it.
And I'm cool playing whatever the result might be.
But I'll not deny that I'm hoping each roll I make is higher than what I could've just settled for. Sometimes I "win", sometimes I "lose", most times I get roughly the same as I could've with array/PB. So be it, at least I tried.

And as a DM? I'll let each player choose roll/PB/array as they please.
 

Just to remind you, the 12 card method allows a single switch, so a single 18 somewhere is always possible.

Out of curiosity, if I came to your game and said "I like to come up with my character concept ahead of time, so I'll use your method but I want to pick the card combination. If it matters, I won't start out with an 18 in any stat."

Would you allow it? Why or why not?

If I use that method (I haven't started using it yet, but it is my intention to use it next time I DM a campaign), then the whole point is that the group make their PCs together, starting with these semi-random stats. I also intend the character creation to be done in this order:-

1.) Choose race. At least half the PCs must be human, no more than half can be non-human, no more than one PC can be 'uncommon' (half-elf, half-orc, gnome, human looking 'other', like variant tiefling or aasimar), no other races allowed.

2.) Choose background.

3.) Determine stats, using the 12 card single switch method, with the players communicating during the process so that if they want to have a balanced party, they can.

4.) Go away and have a week to design their PC's, with steps 1, 2 and 3 now set in stone.

The idea is to create a more 'realistic' group, one that would reflect the population more accurately, while still skewing the bell curve to be 'heroic'.

I'm tired of parties that look like a zoo. You have a world which is largely human/elf/dwarf/halfling by a large proportion, of humans being by far the largest of those. Meanwhile, the party turns up. Although they are from this world so our expectation should be mainly human, the rest mainly dwarf/elf/halfling, the actual party consists of dragonborn/devil-like tiefling/bugbear/warforged/genasi/tabaxi, and then they wonder why there is never any room at the inn!

I'm also tired of point-buy destroying the assumption of a bell curve. Instead of most results being around the middle (and I'm okay with the 'middle' being skewed higher to reflect 'heroic' PCs), scores are either 8 or 15 before racial. I'm tired of looking at the Str/Dex scores and the entire party, without exception, has either Str 16/Dex 8 or Str 8/Dex 16.

So I chose my method to combat all of those faults. Usually, players choose a race that gives a racial bonus to the prime stat of the class. That results in a PC population that has no wizards that are not elves, tieflings or gnomes, no barbarians that are not dragonborn, half-orc or mountain dwarf, no clerics that aren't wood elves or hill dwarves. Yet surely every population that worships gods has clerics!

I've chosen a method that is likely to get, say, a dwarven wizard or an elven barbarian, simply because fate has made their best stat Int or Str. The order which the steps are taken (race, background, stats) is because that's how actual people come into being! You can't help what race you are, your background might be affected by race but might not, but is beyond your control, and high Str or Int is equally possible in all populations (before racial adjustments). However, your class is not random; you choose your class bearing in mind your natural aptitudes, so although an Int 8 person can be a wizard, other classes seem a better fit. This is why stats are determined after race and background but before class is chosen.

Because the players are all doing the first three steps as a group, they can go for a balanced party if they want. But what if someone dies and needs to be replaced? What if a new player joins later? In a normal game, the existing party roster is usually borne in mind when the new PC is being created. This would be difficult to achieve with only a single 12 card single switch. Which is why these later additions would deal the first six cards randomly one to each stat in order, but could then look at the six cards remaining in hand and choose where to assign them. The order would be unchanged re: race/background/stats/class.

All that said, I haven't put this into practice yet. The last time I DMed a campaign I told everyone what the (semi-)random stat generation system was, and then told them that if at the end of the entire stat generation process they didn't like what they got then they could use point-buy instead. This is just like rolling for hit points each level, but taking the set hit points if the roll was worse; I do this too.

Would you have walked away from that one? Your wife was disappointed at being forced to play those low rolls; would she have been okay if her friend would've been allowed to keep her high rolls but your wife could throw her rolled scores away and use point-buy instead? Would her friend have felt guilty enough to throw her high scores away and use point-buy if there wasn't such a huge discrepancy between the scores she and your wife rolled?
 

Just to remind you, the 12 card method allows a single switch, so a single 18 somewhere is always possible.



If I use that method (I haven't started using it yet, but it is my intention to use it next time I DM a campaign), then the whole point is that the group make their PCs together, starting with these semi-random stats. I also intend the character creation to be done in this order:-

1.) Choose race. At least half the PCs must be human, no more than half can be non-human, no more than one PC can be 'uncommon' (half-elf, half-orc, gnome, human looking 'other', like variant tiefling or aasimar), no other races allowed.

2.) Choose background.

3.) Determine stats, using the 12 card single switch method, with the players communicating during the process so that if they want to have a balanced party, they can.

4.) Go away and have a week to design their PC's, with steps 1, 2 and 3 now set in stone.

The idea is to create a more 'realistic' group, one that would reflect the population more accurately, while still skewing the bell curve to be 'heroic'.

I'm tired of parties that look like a zoo. You have a world which is largely human/elf/dwarf/halfling by a large proportion, of humans being by far the largest of those. Meanwhile, the party turns up. Although they are from this world so our expectation should be mainly human, the rest mainly dwarf/elf/halfling, the actual party consists of dragonborn/devil-like tiefling/bugbear/warforged/genasi/tabaxi, and then they wonder why there is never any room at the inn!

I'm also tired of point-buy destroying the assumption of a bell curve. Instead of most results being around the middle (and I'm okay with the 'middle' being skewed higher to reflect 'heroic' PCs), scores are either 8 or 15 before racial. I'm tired of looking at the Str/Dex scores and the entire party, without exception, has either Str 16/Dex 8 or Str 8/Dex 16.

So I chose my method to combat all of those faults. Usually, players choose a race that gives a racial bonus to the prime stat of the class. That results in a PC population that has no wizards that are not elves, tieflings or gnomes, no barbarians that are not dragonborn, half-orc or mountain dwarf, no clerics that aren't wood elves or hill dwarves. Yet surely every population that worships gods has clerics!

I've chosen a method that is likely to get, say, a dwarven wizard or an elven barbarian, simply because fate has made their best stat Int or Str. The order which the steps are taken (race, background, stats) is because that's how actual people come into being! You can't help what race you are, your background might be affected by race but might not, but is beyond your control, and high Str or Int is equally possible in all populations (before racial adjustments). However, your class is not random; you choose your class bearing in mind your natural aptitudes, so although an Int 8 person can be a wizard, other classes seem a better fit. This is why stats are determined after race and background but before class is chosen.

Because the players are all doing the first three steps as a group, they can go for a balanced party if they want. But what if someone dies and needs to be replaced? What if a new player joins later? In a normal game, the existing party roster is usually borne in mind when the new PC is being created. This would be difficult to achieve with only a single 12 card single switch. Which is why these later additions would deal the first six cards randomly one to each stat in order, but could then look at the six cards remaining in hand and choose where to assign them. The order would be unchanged re: race/background/stats/class.

All that said, I haven't put this into practice yet. The last time I DMed a campaign I told everyone what the (semi-)random stat generation system was, and then told them that if at the end of the entire stat generation process they didn't like what they got then they could use point-buy instead. This is just like rolling for hit points each level, but taking the set hit points if the roll was worse; I do this too.

Would you have walked away from that one? Your wife was disappointed at being forced to play those low rolls; would she have been okay if her friend would've been allowed to keep her high rolls but your wife could throw her rolled scores away and use point-buy instead? Would her friend have felt guilty enough to throw her high scores away and use point-buy if there wasn't such a huge discrepancy between the scores she and your wife rolled?

I don't care about my player's stats. I don't care about the bell curve or attempts at "realism". I don't care if the adventuring company reflects the society at large. The people who go adventuring instead of staying at home working the trade of their ancestors because they are exceptional.

I have no problem with wizards being more intelligent than most people, or clerics being wiser any more than I would have a problem with a basketball team with above average height. So yes, I want my characters to be good at what they do, exceptional even without being cheesed out.

An adventuring group could easily have more gnomes than normal for example because they feel like outcasts in a human dominated community. I would not allow someone to play a tabaxi in my campaign, because they don't exist. I do have a list of allowable races.

I see no value to randomly assigned stats for me. If I'm interested in a campaign, I'll typically get info about options, setting and general feel. I generally come up with a character concept before the session 0. So no, I would not want to be told "you will play this randomly generated character".

I do this because I want to create interesting characters that have personality and history. I'm going to be putting myself in their shoes for what I hope to be quite some time, I want to make sure the shoes fit.

Take an example. I want to play Throg. Throg is a half orc, and reasonably personable, smarter than people give him credit for but often acts without thinking. He's also quite clumsy, and can't follow in his adoptive parent's footsteps in the glass-blowing guild.

So that's my character concept. I'd throw in some other background stories that give a picture of the Throg as more than just a cardboard cutout - he really is a lovable lunk that simply leaps before he looks. Maybe he occasionally loses his temper because of his half-orc heritage, and although he would never harm family or friends he feels like he doesn't belong.

I do this before I figure out stats. Now that I have a picture of who Throg is, I have to figure out what he is. Yes, that means I'll probably have dump stats in dexterity and wisdom but I'll also make intelligence and charisma a bit above average as well. A logical class would be some type of fighter. Or maybe while writing up the background I decide he's fascinated with magic and becomes a wizard or an eldritch knight (even if it doesn't seem like a very effective class).

For the next campaign I'm going to be starting in a few weeks, I know who my character is and he has an intro story filled with mystery and deceit (that only my DM knows so far). I just don't know what he is yet.

The point is that the implementation follows the inception. Random stat generation could really mess with that concept, no matter how fair the generation method. For me, stats are not about min/maxing, it's about crafting the character that matches a concept I dreamed up. With reasonable limitations for game balance of course.
 

Apologies if this is a repeat of something in the 27 pages beforehand, but I have two ideas for the classic issue of wanting fairly-consistent but defensible stats. Could a group simply choose a base point value and then have each character roll a 1d4 (or a 1d6 if the base value is a bit lower) to come up with a variable-but-close point buy for each character? Likewise, if a group wants to be slightly higher-powered but more equal to each other, why not choose the standard array but give each character a floating +2 in addition to racial bonuses (or even two +1s, similar to the half-elf bonuses) so that they could choose to solidify a weaker score such as their 8 or else exemplify a strong score like their 15?

(there's also an odd version that I've never used in D&D but we used to use for Rifts: the players take turns rolling up a single stat, thus creating a ranging array of numbers – often with an additional score – that they then all choose from in placing their own stats; this provides for the variability of dice but with the intra-group balance of an array)
 

Has anyone ever created stats by starting each stat with a score (say 6) and then rolling a number of d6s which can then be applied as the player likes to their scores with the limit that all dice must be used and no stat can have a final score higher than 18 before racial adjustments?
 


Has anyone ever created stats by starting each stat with a score (say 6) and then rolling a number of d6s which can then be applied as the player likes to their scores with the limit that all dice must be used and no stat can have a final score higher than 18 before racial adjustments?
Can't say I've heard of that one. I'm curious, what happens if you have a '6' left to distribute, and your lowest remaining score is 13? Tilt?

I suspect it's not an issue, just wondering.

Something not particularly similar that reminded me of:

Each player gets a large pool of dice, like 24 or more. They can use as few as 3d to roll for each stat, deciding how many for each stat, then rolling, and keeping the three highest. So, with 24 dice, you could just roll 4d6 in order, and be done. Or, if you really wanted to play a Wizard with the highest possible INT and didn't care about any other stats, you could roll 3d for everything else (15d over 5 stats), and 9d6 for INT (which gives you a fair chance of an 18, but certainly no guarantee), for a total of 24 dice. Obviously, more than 24 dice wouldn't be unreasonable...
 

Can't say I've heard of that one. I'm curious, what happens if you have a '6' left to distribute, and your lowest remaining score is 13? Tilt?

I suspect it's not an issue, just wondering.

Something not particularly similar that reminded me of:

Each player gets a large pool of dice, like 24 or more. They can use as few as 3d to roll for each stat, deciding how many for each stat, then rolling, and keeping the three highest. So, with 24 dice, you could just roll 4d6 in order, and be done. Or, if you really wanted to play a Wizard with the highest possible INT and didn't care about any other stats, you could roll 3d for everything else (15d over 5 stats), and 9d6 for INT (which gives you a fair chance of an 18, but certainly no guarantee), for a total of 24 dice. Obviously, more than 24 dice wouldn't be unreasonable...
You'd have to swap some dice around if you had a 6 left over with a 13 in a stat. Rolling 12d6 and adding to starting scores of 6 shouldn't see this issue though.

I had forgotten about the 24d6 assign to scores then roll and keep 3. That could be an interesting one to use. Should work well for most concepts.
 

If I use that method (I haven't started using it yet, but it is my intention to use it next time I DM a campaign), then the whole point is that the group make their PCs together, starting with these semi-random stats. I also intend the character creation to be done in this order:-

1.) Choose race. At least half the PCs must be human, no more than half can be non-human, no more than one PC can be 'uncommon' (half-elf, half-orc, gnome, human looking 'other', like variant tiefling or aasimar), no other races allowed.
First off, let me say I'm fully in favour of the human-centric approach.

That said, a few suggestions: in session 0 have each player generate two characters. One must be human, the other can be whatever (including human again of course). They can choose the race of the "whatever" character from a list you supply (sounds like it'd just be dwarf-elf-hobbit). A player who wants to get into the uncommon* list - and maybe not everyone will - gets a d4 roll with a '1' allowing access to a second, longer list you also supply.

Each player can play one of the two characters thus generated; the other is on standby if needed as a replacement.

* - were it me, based on what I've seen played over the years I'd probably move part-elf up from uncommon to common; obviously your experiences may differ from mine.

2.) Choose background.

3.) Determine stats, using the 12 card single switch method, with the players communicating during the process so that if they want to have a balanced party, they can.

4.) Go away and have a week to design their PC's, with steps 1, 2 and 3 now set in stone.
What, and not jump right into adventuring the same evening? :)

The idea is to create a more 'realistic' group, one that would reflect the population more accurately, while still skewing the bell curve to be 'heroic'.

I'm tired of parties that look like a zoo. You have a world which is largely human/elf/dwarf/halfling by a large proportion, of humans being by far the largest of those. Meanwhile, the party turns up. Although they are from this world so our expectation should be mainly human, the rest mainly dwarf/elf/halfling,
In fairness this would depend on where they are in the game world, wouldn't it? If they happen to be somewhere that's 1000 miles away from the nearest human settlement but where elves and dwarves are common... :)

the actual party consists of dragonborn/devil-like tiefling/bugbear/warforged/genasi/tabaxi
None of which are races I'd even allow.

The other way to beat the "zoo" problem is, of course, to simply limit allowable PC races to a short list (human-dwarf-elf-gnome-hobbit-partelf-partorc has done me for decades) and have done with it. :)

Lan-"also make any party NPC adventurers human when you can, to add to the human-centric feel"-efan
 

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