D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Hussar]

Umm, why wouldn't point buy let me play strong and smart? I can pretty easily have a 15 (before racial adjustments) in two stats.

What I can't do is play a strong, smart, dextrous, charismatic wunderkind (read Mary Sue) character.

So, yup, it's a "weakness" of point buy that you cannot play Mary Sue characters with no weaknesses and only strengths.

OTOH, it could easily fall out that your die rolled character cannot be strong and smart - you just didn't roll well enough. Meaning that your concept must be changed because of random chance. Or, to put it another way, you are letting random chance tell you what kind of character you can play. In point buy, you know up front what you can play and what you cannot.

Are really really back to the notion that die rolling is a better system because it allows for Mary Sue concepts? That's a pretty wonky definition of "better".

 

[Maxperson]

Umm, why wouldn't point buy let me play strong and smart? I can pretty easily have a 15 (before racial adjustments) in two stats.

What I can't do is play a strong, smart, dextrous, charismatic wunderkind (read Mary Sue) character.

You also can't be the strongest around.

So, yup, it's a "weakness" of point buy that you cannot play Mary Sue characters with no weaknesses and only strengths.

So, yup, you still counter with strawmen an awful lot. He wasn't talking about "Mary Sue" characters.

 

[FrogReaver]

Umm, why wouldn't point buy let me play strong and smart? I can pretty easily have a 15 (before racial adjustments) in two stats.

What I can't do is play a strong, smart, dextrous, charismatic wunderkind (read Mary Sue) character.

So, yup, it's a "weakness" of point buy that you cannot play Mary Sue characters with no weaknesses and only strengths.

OTOH, it could easily fall out that your die rolled character cannot be strong and smart - you just didn't roll well enough. Meaning that your concept must be changed because of random chance. Or, to put it another way, you are letting random chance tell you what kind of character you can play. In point buy, you know up front what you can play and what you cannot.

Are really really back to the notion that die rolling is a better system because it allows for Mary Sue concepts? That's a pretty wonky definition of "better".

I think you miss the point. A barbarian trading str or dex or constitution for charisma isn't making an even trade. Point buy and standard array assumes that such a trade is even when it is not and that's where it's unfairness comes in.

 

[Hussar]

You also can't be the strongest around.



So, yup, you still counter with strawmen an awful lot. He wasn't talking about "Mary Sue" characters.

Umm, how is "the strongest around" AND "smart" not a Mary Sue? Heck, how is "Strongest Around" not a Mary Sue by definition, particularly when it comes with no weaknesses?

Look, I get the notion of die rolling. You want to "win" the stat lottery. Fantastic. But, let's be honest here and admit that that's what's going on.

 

[Hussar]

You make a strong argument for no stats at all

You see, neither point buy nor standard array is fair. Why not? Because off-stats are weighted the same way as primary stats. I can't make a highly charismatic barbarian (a stat which he gets no additional benefit from) without sacrificing an equal amount in str, dex or con (all of which give him very good additional benefits). Basically, if I wanted to play a highly charismatic barbarian under point buy or standard array I would be the weak one, I would be the one with the "uneven start".

Umm, why can't you trade in Wis or Int for Cha? Why does it have to come from Str, Dex or Con?

After all, you can, even with standard array, have a 15 Str, 12 Dex, 13 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis 14 Cha barbarian. How is that not a "strong, charismatic" barbarian. If he's human, you bump all those stats by 1, making him the strongest, non magically enhanced human possible (at 1st level) and nearly the most charismatic as well.

Remember, when you use standard array or point buy, the max is 15, not 18. The strongest human alive, unless she's at least 4th level, only has a 16 strength. She cannot have any more than that.

So, how is this not achieving the concept?

 

[FrogReaver]

Umm, how is "the strongest around" AND "smart" not a Mary Sue? Heck, how is "Strongest Around" not a Mary Sue by definition, particularly when it comes with no weaknesses?

Look, I get the notion of die rolling. You want to "win" the stat lottery. Fantastic. But, let's be honest here and admit that that's what's going on.

Actually I'm not arguing in favor of stat rolling. I'm arguing against the notion that point buy is inherently fair.

I am saying that a 15 str 15 con 15 dex 8 wisdom 8 charisma 8 intelligence barbarian is probably more closesly matched with a 15 str 15 con 15 charisma 12 dex 8 intelligence 8 charisma barbarian than one that just changes 15 dex with 8 charisma as point buy would have you do.

Point buy works great for barbarian building as long as your primary 3 highest stats are str, dex and con. You can shave a point or 2 off those values and put them toward off stats. But you cannot make a highly charismatic barbarian in point buy that doesn't come out feeling pretty gimped.

 

[FrogReaver]

Umm, why can't you trade in Wis or Int for Cha? Why does it have to come from Str, Dex or Con?

After all, you can, even with standard array, have a 15 Str, 12 Dex, 13 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis 14 Cha barbarian. How is that not a "strong, charismatic" barbarian. If he's human, you bump all those stats by 1, making him the strongest, non magically enhanced human possible (at 1st level) and nearly the most charismatic as well.

Remember, when you use standard array or point buy, the max is 15, not 18. The strongest human alive, unless she's at least 4th level, only has a 16 strength. She cannot have any more than that.

So, how is this not achieving the concept?

You achieved the concept well enough but at what cost? You have slightly different skills and saving throws but the bonuses equal out in those areas IMO. So you are essentially down 1 AC compared to the more optimized barbarian. That's enough to show that it was an uneven start.

Isn't the argument for point buy primarily about having an "even start". But as we just showed, point buy doesn't achieve an even start unless everyone is playing more or less cookie cutter characters.

 

[Yardiff]

MAD classes = Mary Sue
SAD classes = balanced/fair

 

[Lanefan]

I would be OK with that as long as it is straight 4d6 drop lowest for the random generation.

With rearranging allowed, or not?

The impact is pretty minor. Class abilities, player brains and roleplaying have a much greater impact on the game.

As do subsequent dice rolls, not least of which are for hit points...

Lan-"and yes, hit points are always rolled for"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

Remember, when you use standard array or point buy, the max is 15, not 18. The strongest human alive, unless she's at least 4th level, only has a 16 strength. She cannot have any more than that.

This statement makes a few rather gargantuan (and outright wrong, I think) assumptions: that every human alive is using point-buy to generate their stats, and that the statistical 3-18 bell curve for human abilities across the general population has been thrown out the window.

Lan-"in utopia there are no gimps of any kind, as the lowest possible stat is 8 on a 3-18 bell-curve equivalent"-efan