Point buy

[3d6]

Its discussions like these that convince me that 4e should have ability scores for a normal human that range from -4 to 4 that are added directly to the roll. Death to ability score modifiers!

 

[KarinsDad]

All told, none of those are individually compelling reasons, but taken together, I think they provide sufficient reason to start with odd stats--or at least to prefer a 15 to a 14.

Just like there are several lesser compelling reasons to take an odd stat, there are several lesser compelling reasons to take an even stat:

1) I suspect that most campaigns disintegrate before high level (unless the campaign started out fair medium to high) due to unexpected situations (e.g. players leave the group, PCs get killed, players want to try something new, etc.).

That means that in many traditional campaigns (starting at level one or two), stat boost will occur at 3 levels (max): 4, 8, and 12.

With an odd stat, the good levels for increasing one stat then become:

4, 5, 6, 7, 12, 13, ...

and with an even stat, they become:

1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11

So depending on which level you start at, you gain your advantages earlier with an even stat and through the heart of your adventuring (7 of the first 11 levels as opposed to 4 of the first 11 levels).

By the time you get to high level, one or two +1 modifiers will matter very little. It is at low level that they make the most impact.

2) Very few players take spell casters with a 14 starting stat ever unless the campaign is using a dice rolling method. So, the argument that 15 is better than 14 although true, is less strong than 16 is better than 15. Most point buy is 25 or higher (tmk). Players want to play heroes, not scrubs.

16 is 10 points out of a 25 point buy system. That leaves 15 points left over or stats like 12 12 12 10 9. Granted, the character is forced to have an odd stat this way, but dropping to 15 in order to get 15 12 12 12 10 11 is less advantageous. Plus, a 16 stat allows for the feat buying stat as well: 16 13 12 12 10 8. Since most characters will not buy multiple 13 required stat feats, especially at lower level (there are just too many good class related feats at low level and it isn‘t until medium level that most unusual feats with odd stat prerequisites become more desirable), it is very easy with this type of a stat array to increase any of the 12 stats to 13 if needed later on.

For example, it is typically better to boost a 12 to 13 at level 4 (or at level 8 for level 9) and take a 13 Dex prerequisite feat at level 6 than it is to start the stat out at 13 at level 1 and still take that feat at level 6.

And sure, an occassional character might want Combat Expertise for defensive fighting at level one, but 16 13 12 12 10 8 still allows for that. With 25 point buy, an odd stat is built into the system already.

3) Multiple odd stats lose bonuses for the character (this is a more compelling reason than a less compelling reason).

15 12 12 12 11 10

uses up 3 point buy points that aren’t yet doing anything until fourth level. At least

14 14 12 12 11 10 or
16 12 12 11 10 10

are only not using 1 point buy point.


And, the list goes on:


Plus, if you are out of point buy and rolling dice, the entire discussion is moot since you get whatever you roll.

 

[sullivan]

Ya, unless you have an odd number of Points, or are starting the PC well on into levels, odd stats are pretty much sub-optimal....which is why I like rolling stats. I don't like the 'feel' of all even stats but i'm driven to not waste Points. Such is the cross born by power-roleplayers.

 

[Gruns]

Odd...

As a DM, I throw the whole "Must have even numbered stats!" thing out the window by breaking the *cough* rules and making magic items with +1 bonuses to stats. (And many with minuses to stats...). Yeah, I know this just allows more opportunity to min/max ("Why dont you use the longsword with the +1 Str, and let me use the +1 Dex ring" etc etc) but luckily my players are more role-playey than they are power-gamey...
Later!
Gruns

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Just like there are several lesser compelling reasons to take an odd stat, there are several lesser compelling reasons to take an even stat:

<snip>
By the time you get to high level, one or two +1 modifiers will matter very little. It is at low level that they make the most impact.

That rather depends upon the stat. My analysis is as follows:
1. A +1 modifier to a spellcasting stat is very significant if it grants a bonus spell at your highest castable level. This is no less true at high levels than at low.
2. A +1 modifier to Constitution is more important at high levels than at low levels since more of your hit point pool comes from constitution. (The first level max HD reduces the significance of Constitution at lower levels). Similarly, I think fort save effects are more common and deadly at higher levels though that may just be my style of play.

For other stats, though, I think you're right that the modifiers are more important at low levels than at high levels.

2) Very few players take spell casters with a 14 starting stat ever unless the campaign is using a dice rolling method. So, the argument that 15 is better than 14 although true, is less strong than 16 is better than 15. Most point buy is 25 or higher (tmk). Players want to play heroes, not scrubs.

The reason for a low casting stat is very often multiclassing. A fighter/mage, for instance, wants good str, dex, con, and int. Wis and cha are not as significant. In order to accomplish that on a 28 point system, the character could go 14, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10 or 14, 14, 14, 15, 10, 8. Going to the 16 int would require dumping wisdom and taking the penalty to will saves. It also may not buy the character as much as one would think since a fighter/mage will generally want to avoid spells with saves in favor of spells that make him fight better making the relevant factor the bonus slot at highest castable level rather than DC. On 25 points, the incentive for not taking a 16 is even higher since 14, 13, 14, 14, 10, 8 is the best a character can do without taking save penalties and a 16 int is out of reach without sacrificing either strength, dex, or con.

When the reason is not multiclassing, filling multiple roles is often a reason. A battle cleric, for instance will usually want a 14 strength and con as well as a decent charisma to power a divine feat or two. If the character is willing to dump charisma, str 14, dex 12, con 14, int 10, wis 16, cha 8 is a possibility. To retain turning and divine feats as an option, however, it's necessary to drop either wisdom or dexterity--possibly both on a 28 point system. Again, on 25 points, the sacrifices necessary to play a battle cleric are more dramatic.

16 is 10 points out of a 25 point buy system. That leaves 15 points left over or stats like 12 12 12 10 9. Granted, the character is forced to have an odd stat this way, but dropping to 15 in order to get 15 12 12 12 10 11 is less advantageous. Plus, a 16 stat allows for the feat buying stat as well: 16 13 12 12 10 8. Since most characters will not buy multiple 13 required stat feats, especially at lower level (there are just too many good class related feats at low level and it isn‘t until medium level that most unusual feats with odd stat prerequisites become more desirable), it is very easy with this type of a stat array to increase any of the 12 stats to 13 if needed later on.

For example, it is typically better to boost a 12 to 13 at level 4 (or at level 8 for level 9) and take a 13 Dex prerequisite feat at level 6 than it is to start the stat out at 13 at level 1 and still take that feat at level 6.

You see, there we disagree. A character with a 13 dex and 17 strength at first level will be better off by level 6 than the character who starts with an 18 strength and 10 dex and still wants to take the dodge feat tree. More to the point, in terms of absolute numbers, since <=14 scores cost only 1 pt per level at first level but > 14 cost multiple points at first level, but all scores get the same increase from the 4 level stat bump whether they start at 13 or 20, a character who buys the 13 at first level for 1 point and increases a 17 to an 18 at 4th will be two points better off than the character who instead buys an 18 (vis a vis a 17) at first level and buys up dex at 4th. With the 15 to 16 vs. 12 to 13, the odd stat guy comes out one point ahead. Using level bumps to get odd numbers in non-prime stats in order to qualify for feats is never a good idea. If you want the 13, you buy it at first level.

And sure, an occassional character might want Combat Expertise for defensive fighting at level one, but 16 13 12 12 10 8 still allows for that. With 25 point buy, an odd stat is built into the system already.

IMO, a character is more likely to want it for Improved Trip at first level (Not an obviously suboptimal choice).... and the odd stat is not built into 28 or 32 point buy systems.

3) Multiple odd stats lose bonuses for the character (this is a more compelling reason than a less compelling reason).

15 12 12 12 11 10

uses up 3 point buy points that aren’t yet doing anything until fourth level. At least

14 14 12 12 11 10 or
16 12 12 11 10 10

are only not using 1 point buy point.

I agree that multiple odd stats are generally a bad idea unless you're going for specific feats. To modify your example, 15, 12, 14, 13, 10, 8 is a pretty good build for a 25 point buy fighter who wants to use Improved Trip at first level. (Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and a guisarme). The character can get a 16 strength by 4th level, max out the dex on his banded mail and (later) fullplate, and still have Combat Expertise without wasting his 4th level statbump for it. Trying for a 16 strength at 1st level and still being able to qualify for Combat Expertise at 4th would require dropping dex, con, or wisdom--none of which is a good idea.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

This is only sort of related but here is my point buy character and the reasons for his build. He is a human paladin and while the DM said his adventure likely won't go beyond the upper mid level I've planned him for 20th anyway. Magic item boosters may only affect the increases in wisdom; I'd be tempted to put them into cha or str - hard to say.

25 point buy (default array by chance): str15 dex10 con13 int8 wis12 cha14; sword and board tank. 4th level = str, 8th level = con, 12th level = wis, 16th level = wis, 20th level = str?

Core rules so no divine feats and so charisma gets the shaft (relatively). Strength gets priority and then con for HPs when the bump up will be better felt. Levels 8, 9 and 11, I dip out on early spells that would require a 14+ or 16+ wisdom to get. 3 skills sharing 2 points per level means none are max ranked.

I've really become enamored with 25 point buy. That annoyingly extra 1 point and a desire to use every point usefully gets rid of this even spread, a fair criticism you can level at 28 point buy. As everyone is having to make sacrifices with their characters, I've noticed as a DM, the players occupy their core niche and have to rely on the others to do their tasks well. This in turn, to my eye, promotes greater cooperative play and less 'niche encroachment' (something we've had issues with previously).

 

[Pinotage]

I find it odd that this happened to you too.

The SRD is not the game, it is merely a subset.

The game is the PHB, DMG, MM, plus any other source material someone wishes to play with and the DND Rules Forum should allow discussion on all official DND rules, not just SRD ones. Otherwise, it should be called the SRD Rules Forum. IMO.

This may be my confusion, part of the reason I didn't post details of the point buy in my initial post. Are you allowed to post details like that without knowledge that the person asking the question even has the Core books?

Pinotage

 

[KarinsDad]

This may be my confusion, part of the reason I didn't post details of the point buy in my initial post. Are you allowed to post details like that without knowledge that the person asking the question even has the Core books?

I suspect for simple questions it is ok. People type in PrC and feat questions and/or suggestions from non-core books all of the time here on the boards.

From my perspective, a lot of core rule (and non-core rule) information that is not in the SRD is pretty much common knowledge for people in the gaming community. So unless you are typing in a lot of information word for word from the core books (e.g. typing in entire monster stat blocks) that is not in the SRD, there shouldn't be a large problem. With PBEM and other online games, it is still conceivable that the DM is the only person with the rulebooks and he has to communicate electronically that information to his players, hence, it is likely that you can find it somewhere on the Internet anyway.

 

[moritheil]

This is somewhat rude, but not entirely inaccurate. Most people do not have a 100% coherent idea of all details of their character until they play it for a while. You can look at that as either being "indecisive," or not wanting to commit to an archetype until more information is available. This is essentially the same as not writing a paper all in one draft vs. writing it all at once.

Incidentally, this discussion seems to have ignored what happens when someone takes 1 point of ability damage or drain. The main use, IMHO, of having an odd score is that additional buffer point. It's up to you to decide whether or not it's worth it.

Also, with Int, every point matters. I don't think it would hurt to have an odd int score.

I call that indecisiveness.

I get the exact same versatility that you do, I just happen to make my decision at level 1 instead of level 4. I get the same roleplaying opportunities, but my character is more able to survive as well. If you suddenly decide to be a Str Monster at level 4 and never put another point into Con, you have effectively wasted that extra point of Con (16 to 17) that you put in at first level and with point buy, you have wasted 2 point buy points.

You are not being objective if you think that waiting to decide compares in any way to having the extra +1 for 3 levels (or even +1 through +3 for many levels with 6 odd stats).

Giving up abilities at earlier levels just in order to regain those same abilities at later level is not a strong reason. It's a relatively weak one.

 

[Thanee]

Because of the even stats with PB, I prefer random methods (especially random methods, which lead to roughly balanced characters (4d6-drop-lowest is not such a method)).

Bye
Thanee