Polearm Warden Builds

[Cadfan]

Look, here's the reason reach weapons help wardens.

Scenario 1: Marked adjacent enemy attacks your ally.

Warden with reach: Enemy attack is at -2. Warden responds with melee attack vs reflex, that causes the foe to grant CA if hit.

Warden without reach: The same.

Scenario 2: Marked adjacent enemy shifts one space away, and then attacks ally.

Warden with reach: Enemy attack is at -2. Warden responds with melee attack vs reflex, that causes the foe to grant CA if hit.

Warden without reach: Enemy attack is at -2. Warden responds by pulling the marked enemy back into melee reach, after the enemy's attack is complete.

Scenario 3: Marked adjacent enemy takes a move action to get 2+ spaces away from the warden, and then attacks an ally.

Warden with reach: Enemy attack is at -2. Warden gets an opportunity attack when the enemy leaves. The warden also responds by pulling the marked enemy back into melee reach, after the enemy's attack is complete.

Warden without reach: Enemy attack is at -2. Warden gets an opportunity attack when the enemy leaves. The warden also responds by pulling the marked enemy back into melee reach, after the enemy's attack is complete.

So both wardens are exactly the same in scenarios 1 and 3, but there is a very big disparity in scenario 2. Notice that your enemy gets the most choice about which scenario you're in: If you have no reach, then as long as your enemy has the ability to shift one space away from you and attack your ally, the warden's mark is exactly as good as a totally vanilla monster's mark.

That's why one of the warden builds gives you all kinds of paragon feats for shifting before making your mark attack. The strength of a warden who can stop the "shift 1, attack" response to being marked is significantly upgraded as far as defending is concerned. If you're not that build, or if you want this ability at lower levels, then a reach weapon gets you it immediately.

 

[Caliber]

A Half-Elf Earth (Con) Warden can choose Eldritch Strike as his Dilettante power. It is a melee attack (so Reach applies) that uses Con, and lets you Slide the target 1. Also, its a Basic Attack. Add in a Staggering Reach weapon, a few polearm feats, and the Versatile Master feat (along with the Polearm Master PP) and you're a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Look, here's the reason reach weapons help wardens.

There is a mistake and an omission that may change the cost-benefit analysis.

Warden with reach: Enemy attack is at -2. Warden responds with melee attack vs reflex, that causes the foe to grant CA if hit.

Should be "vs. Fortitude", not "vs. Reflex".

Warden without reach: Enemy attack is at -2. Warden responds by pulling the marked enemy back into melee reach, after the enemy's attack is complete.

This is not the only option that the Warden has. The warden does not have to pull the target, the Warden can slide the target one square. Additionally, the target becomes slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn. This can be used to position the target in a spot favourable to the party.

The value of this power can be hard to judge, but it can be used to move an enemy into a position where it is flanked and where it must remain or face one or more opportunity attacks in that flanked position.

So both wardens are exactly the same in scenarios 1 and 3, but there is a very big disparity in scenario 2. Notice that your enemy gets the most choice about which scenario you're in: If you have no reach, then as long as your enemy has the ability to shift one space away from you and attack your ally, the warden's mark is exactly as good as a totally vanilla monster's mark.

With the ability to slide the marked enemy, the choice that the enemy has for the scenario is mirrored by the choice that the Warden has in where the enemy will end up.

There are also many Warden powers that make terrain near to the Warden into difficult terrain. This cuts down on the amount of shifting away from the Warden that actually occurs. Additionally, Wardens can run around an enemy and use an at-will power to pull that enemy away from the rest of the party. Combining that with the Sudden Roots feat can keep a specific enemy from reaching other PCs.

 

[Shin Okada]

To Flipguarder,

Thats simply not true.

My Ac on my 14th level Earthstrength Warden

+3 hide = 6
Ability (con) = 5
shield bonus = 2
Shield expertise = 1
1/2 level = 7

10+6+5+2+1+7= 31

Do you mean Shield Specialization? That feat needs Dex 15. So your Earthstrength warden has Con 20+ and Dex15 at level 14? How much is that PC's Strength?

Ac on a plate wearing guy of the using the same feats
+3 plate


+3 Plate = 11
Ability (dex) = 0
Shield bonus = 2
Shield expertise = 1
1/2 level = 7

10+11+2+1+7 = 31

At this level he should be wearing +3 Gith Plate which has +13 AC. Most plate-clad defenders can meet the prerequisite of either Armor Specialization (Plate) or Shield Specialization without lowering Str. So, AC will be 33. If the plate-clad defender has the same ability as above-mentioned Earthstrength warden, he can take both of those feats and his total AC is 34.

 

[Flipguarder]

I think that warden's fury having a range of 2 is the only viable reason why you should get a reach weapon.

And I don't buy the idea that warden's fury is the clear winner of the two immediate at will abilities.

I took a khopesh, the warblade (+2 to Opportunity attack rolls) magic item option from the eberron handbook for the warforged.

Then I took
Blade opportunist
Agile Opportunist
Sudden roots

And the bracers of mighty striking lvl 12

So on opportunity attacks I have a +4 to the roll, I can make them whenever the bard in my party pulls/pushes me, they do an extra 4 damage each, and every time I hit the enemy is slowed.

Im pretty happy about this build. Also I believe all but one or two of my attacks prevents the enemy from shift/charging in some way.

And having your allies stay adjacent to you is a great way to prevent shift attacking too.

 

[Flipguarder]

To Flipguarder,
Do you mean Shield Specialization? That feat needs Dex 15. So your Earthstrength warden has Con 20+ and Dex15 at level 14? How much is that PC's Strength?

Warforged +2 con and Str

str 22
Con 20
dex 15
int 11
Wis 14
Cha 9

At this level he should be wearing +3 Gith Plate which has +13 AC. Most plate-clad defenders can meet the prerequisite of either Armor Specialization (Plate) or Shield Specialization without lowering Str. So, AC will be 33. If the plate-clad defender has the same ability as above-mentioned Earthstrength warden, he can take both of those feats and his total AC is 34.

If they get gith plate then I get whatever the Special masterwork hide is, which may not raise ac but you are not giving equally to both sides there.
I already added the idea that the characters both have heavy shields and heavy shield specialization. And I could just as easily take Armor specialization.

So say gith plate gives ac and the masterwork (or upgraded what have you) hide doesnt give you ac but gives a NAD.

The final situation you described would be
Me:

10 +1/2 level + +3 specialty hide + con mod + heavy shield + shield specialization + armor specialization

10 +7 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 32 And some bonus for specialty hide (to match the gith plate)

and them:


10 + 1/2 level + +3 specialty plate + dex mod + heavy shield + shield specialization + armor specialization

10 + 7 + 12 + 0 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 33

Hardly what I'd call much lower.

 

[Cadfan]

Should be "vs. Fortitude", not "vs. Reflex".

My bad.

This is not the only option that the Warden has. The warden does not have to pull the target, the Warden can slide the target one square. Additionally, the target becomes slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn. This can be used to position the target in a spot favourable to the party.

The value of this power can be hard to judge, but it can be used to move an enemy into a position where it is flanked and where it must remain or face one or more opportunity attacks in that flanked position.

Granted, but a warden with a reach weapon has both options. And while positioning your enemy can be powerful, it is situational. Damage isn't.

In many ways a reach weapon turns the warden's mark into the fighter's mark, versus a non AC defense, in a close burst 1, with free combat advantage on a hit.

 

[Flipguarder]

Cadfan that is really nice. I hadn't realized just how powerful that can be.

However, I still believe the +3 to ac and reflex my shield gives me is more important than that.

 

[Mistwell]

Have you guys considered the Fisherman builds listed at the WOTC optimization forum? Frankly I think they do a better job explaining the advantage of a Reach-based warden. See for example this thread, or this one.

 

[Starfox]

Then I took
Blade opportunist
...
Sudden roots

This is how I'd do it too.

So on opportunity attacks... I can make them whenever the bard in my party pulls/pushes me...

Not so sure the bard angle will work. We had a discussion about that here, and we came to the conclusion that only enemy sliding gives opportunity attacks with Agile Opportunist:

An opportunity action must be triggered by an enemy’s action.