POLL: Extra 5'-Step for Haste?

[Artoomis]

What would have been a good poll, would have been something very brief, like:

"In your opinion, is a character allowed to take two 5ft steps when Hasted?"

We all know the issues and aguments from the other thread, restating (only) your view on the matter here just skews the results. Not a big deal really, but I would have been interested to see the results of an unbiased poll on this issue. In fact, I'd like to see polls on many of the ambiguous issues we've discussed, and I am hoping that by pointing out the problems with this one, we can avoid repeating them in the future.


Anyway, the poll was a great idea. The implementation could have used a little work. Nothing personal.

A valid concern. I actually wanted to capture the major points both sides were making so that anyone answering the poll could have a quick look/reminder of the issues, so that we would hopefully get better responses.

I suppose the way to go would be to have both sides state their view in five sentances or less, and then start a poll with both views presented. And of course, only the facts should be presented with opinions edited out. That way we could get, more or less, eductated responses rather than purely emotional or uninformed ones, which I wanted to try and avoid.

I don't see the ideal solution happening. Someone would have to put it together and then become a target for criticism. and I don't think too many folks really want to do that.

 

[Artoomis]

What if we assume for the moment that the answer isn't somewhere in the rules? At that point it seems we would have to resort to different criteria to decide how to rule, a couple of different criteria are:

1- Design: In other words what was the designers intent when they designed haste the way they did and how does a 5 ft. step fit into that?

2- Balance: how does ruling one way or the other affect game balance?

Just trying to peek out of the box...

Thank you, EOL, just the sort of input I was hoping for here - one or two sentances that would give people things to mull over in deciding which way they think it should be. The answers to these particular questions may (or may not) be found in the thread I referenced in my first post.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Does the rules imply you cannot take more than one 5-foot-step in one round? I think not. They state it!!!

You can take a 5-foot-step if that is your entire move in a round, otherwise you cannot.

This rule applys always, even when you are hasted.

 

[Caliban]

Does the rules imply you cannot take more than one 5-foot-step in one round? I think not. They state it!!!

You can take a 5-foot-step if that is your entire move in a round, otherwise you cannot.

This rule applys always, even when you are hasted.

Except that rule is only stated for Move Equivalent actions. It's not stated for partial actions.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Except that rule is only stated for Move Equivalent actions. It's not stated for partial actions.

Well, you're wrong there, sorry!

PHB, page 117, Combat Basics, Movement, Last Paragraph.

If your entire move for the round is 5 feet (a 5-foot-step), enemies do not get AoO for you moving.

 

[Caliban]

That's just the basic rule of thumb, and in a normal round it would be true.

We are talking about when you are hasted, which gives you an extra action after your normal one.

If you look at the actual descriptionsof the various actions on page 121 of the PHB, the only one that is specifically limited to a 5' step once a round is the Move equivalent action.

I believe that this is because the MEA is the only action that can normally be performed more than once in a round.

Haste lets you perform an extra partial action in addition to your normal actions, and a partial action can include a 5' step.

 

[AGGEMAM]

That's just the basic rule of thumb, and in a normal round it would be true.

rule of thumb - rule of D&D - call it what you will. It still a rule.

We are talking about when you are hasted, which gives you an extra action after your normal one.

ooh,well thank you for reminding me

If you look at the actual descriptionsof the various actions on page 121 of the PHB, the only one that is specifically limited to a 5' step once a round is the Move equivalent action.

why don't you have a look yourself. Two paragraph above, also PHB, page 121. Most Full-round actions allow you to make a 5-foot-step.

I believe that this is because the MEA is the only action that can normally be performed more than once in a round.

what about Free Actions???

Haste lets you perform an extra partial action in addition to your normal actions, and a partial action can include a 5' step.

Remember, that under Partial actions it say:

'Typically, you may take a 5-foot-step as part of a Partial action.'

That word *typically*, always stand for 'exceptions noted'.

 

[Uller]

I didn't read the previous thread at all before reading the poll and I didn't think it was so skewed(and definitely not so skewed as to cause the heavy leaning toward one 5' step). After reading both sides, I can't help but lean with the one 5' step per round side because the rule specificialy states that you may take a 5ft step if there was no other movement in your turn.

 

[Caliban]

why don't you have a look yourself. Two paragraph above, also PHB, page 121. Most Full-round actions allow you to make a 5-foot-step.

It doesnt specifically limit you to one per round, it limits you to one per Full Round Action. It doesn't need to limit it to one per round, because you can only do one Full Round Action per round.

Move Equivalent Actions are listed with a limit: they only allow a 5' step if you haven't otherwise moved in the round. No other action has this limit, they just state whether or not you can take a 5' step with them.

what about Free Actions???

What about them?

Free actions don't have any effect on 5' steps, because free actions occur while you are taking another action. The other action you are taking may or may not allow a 5' step.

Remember, that under Partial actions it say:

'Typically, you may take a 5-foot-step as part of a Partial action.'

That word *typically*, always stand for 'exceptions noted'.

And? The extra partial action from Haste is not a noted exception, therefore you can take a 5' step with the partial action from haste.

 

[Virago]

AGGEMAM, you're officially a silly-head!

I'll note only one of your sillinesses:

rule of thumb - rule of D&D - call it what you will. It still a rule.

Except the rule you quoted ("if your entire movement for the round is 5' ...") pertains to receiving AoOs, and in no way speaks towards how many 5' steps you may or may not receive. There's nothing in this rule that says you cannot take twelve 5' steps per round -- all it says that if you take only one (and don't otherwise move) you provoke no AoO.

And I'll further note that you even applied this quote incorrectly.

The fact is, that the restriction of 5' steps and other movement for the round being mutually exclusive only occurs within the context of the MEA. You can't find a quote in the PHB that proves otherwise, just like you can't find a quote that says that unarmed characters do not threaten.

This is due to the fact that these rules are not present, to the best of many people's knowledge.

That word *typically*, always stand for 'exceptions noted'.

And the only exception noted appears in reference to MEAs.

I think Caliban is on your side anyway. He's saying (1) That exception is probably meant to be general, and (2) It's put in the MEA section not because it applies only to MEAs, but because in the general non-hasted way of things, it can only apply to MEAs.

The question left open is just how much else is also phrased generally because not much thought went into the state of affairs created by haste, or was perhaps even ignored in the interest of (relative ) clarity.