D&D 5E [Poll] Hypothetical: Fire Giant difficulty (Combat As War)

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hypothetical scenario: a group of nine Fire Giants, and nine Orcish cavalry (Orcs mounted on Worgs) is moving toward a strategic objective that the PCs don't want to lose, such as their stronghold. The PCs have 24 hours' warning, but they'll only be able to scrape up a handful of NPC reinforcements (6-10 Guards) because reasons.

Additionally, according to your spies, your old nemesis, a full Vampire, has been seen in the area recently and may or may not take the opportunity to pick off a few of the PCs if they look vulnerable. He may have a couple of Vampire Spawn minions with him but no more than two.

If you were in a group of four PCs, what is the lowest level at which you'd find this an entertaining challenge for your DM to present you with, as opposed to a sadistic, unfair challenge?

 

[OB1]

Third Level - Just as the PCs are getting a feeling for their full capabilities, their world has been turned upside down. They will have to flee their stronghold, but vow to adventure deep into the Hemlock mountains searching for the mythical lost Glaive, Jountanbane, and return with it to take back their homestead. But first, they will have to convince the ancient Hag of the Slippery Valley to let them pass, and they know the price will be steep...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hmmm, apparently players aren't as wary of challenges like this as I would have thought. You could spring this on an 8th level party and apparently about the majority of gamers would be fine with that--at least, if this poll can be trusted. It's kind of weird that out of 145 views, only 5 people have voted, so I don't know that I actually trust the poll results...

Third Level - Just as the PCs are getting a feeling for their full capabilities, their world has been turned upside down. They will have to flee their stronghold, but vow to adventure deep into the Hemlock mountains searching for the mythical lost Glaive, Jountanbane, and return with it to take back their homestead. But first, they will have to convince the ancient Hag of the Slippery Valley to let them pass, and they know the price will be steep...

So you'd basically just cede the objective and try to go elsewhere? And you wouldn't find that unfair or jerkish of the DM to put you in that position? Interesting.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I put 9th level as the lowest level I'd reasonably expect to succeed without access to some sort of ace in the hole (such as good resources from the stronghold).

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it at any level. I'm not really afraid of failure as a player. I consider it just another fun experience.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

I said 7th level. That's assuming situational force multipliers such as some way to get favorable terrain, split up the enemies or perhaps weapon emplacements. Ideally they could fight a guerilla war against the giants, picking off a few at a time and then retreating. If its a straight-up fight with little situational benefit I'd want to be maybe 11th.

If there's a potential RP solution such as getting the giants to kill each other off, go after some other target, or even ally with the party there's no reason you couldn't do it at level 1. But at anything less than 5 you're looking at not much of a safety buffer if that goes south.

Not too worried about the orcs. It shouldn't be too hard to separate them from the giants and pick them off. The vampire is a problem. I'd hate to worry about it when maneuvering in a loose formation against a force of giants. It's mobile and stealthy with a good disruptive charm ability. Luckily, it doesn't synergize effectively with the fire giants. The vampire favors night while the giants (who lack darkvision and are rockthrowers) favor day. There's room to work with that.

 

[Sunseeker]

If it's designed to be something we're actually supposed to fight, it really depends on group composition. I'd say 6-9th on average with good party composition. There are a lot of good utility spells in 5E that could be used to deal with this situation. Move Earth, Wall of Stone, Glyph of Warding (Exploding Runes). Depends on how strategic the enemies are. Do they march right up to the gates and bash them down? Do they hammer the fort from a distance, Fire Giants hurling large boulders while fast-moving worg-mounted archers run skirmishes around the defenders? Does the terrain favor the fort (high ground, moat, etc...) or the enemy? Are their intentions to capture the fort? Destroy it? Slay its defenders? Take prisoners?

I dunno, I don't really throw things at my party that I expect them not to fight except things for them to see at a distance. If I'm going to put the party in the middle of a fight, I expect them to be reasonably able to fight that fight. They might come out with 2-3/5 dead party members, but that's not a problem.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'd say 11th. While it's technically feasible for a lower level party, there would be minimal margin for error IMO (one or two unlucky rolls might spell TPK).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I said 7th level. That's assuming situational force multipliers such as some way to get favorable terrain, split up the enemies or perhaps weapon emplacements. Ideally they could fight a guerilla war against the giants, picking off a few at a time and then retreating. If its a straight-up fight with little situational benefit I'd want to be maybe 11th.

With 24 hours' notice, yes, you could assume access to some kind of favorable terrain, although the giants aren't stupid and will try to stay away from any terrain that is too unfavorable. (They wouldn't march across miles of salt flats, for example.) But if you want to catch them on the edge of a forest, that would be totally reasonable. Splitting them up with decoy attack (or two) is likewise very potentially possible. And yes, guerilla warfare is where it's at--although the giants can short-rest after one of your attacks to regain whatever HP you just took off of them, so you'd need to find a way to prevent that and/or ideally finish off at least one giant per guerilla attack.

If there's a potential RP solution such as getting the giants to kill each other off, go after some other target, or even ally with the party there's no reason you couldn't do it at level 1. But at anything less than 5 you're looking at not much of a safety buffer if that goes south.

As a hypothetical DM I'm not going to rule out the RP solution, but I'm also not going to promise you that one exists. I.e. I don't have one built in but if you come up with something brilliantly plausible I might decide to run with your idea, although it would likely involve some ability checks to execute your plan.

Not too worried about the orcs. It shouldn't be too hard to separate them from the giants and pick them off. The vampire is a problem. I'd hate to worry about it when maneuvering in a loose formation against a force of giants. It's mobile and stealthy with a good disruptive charm ability. Luckily, it doesn't synergize effectively with the fire giants. The vampire favors night while the giants (who lack darkvision and are rockthrowers) favor day. There's room to work with that.

The orcs exist mainly to provide some eyes and ears for the giants and prevent them from easily being kited with cavalry. They're auxiliaries and outriders, not intended as a standalone threat.

It sounds like you'd be a fun player to have at the table.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If it's designed to be something we're actually supposed to fight, it really depends on group composition. I'd say 6-9th on average with good party composition. There are a lot of good utility spells in 5E that could be used to deal with this situation. Move Earth, Wall of Stone, Glyph of Warding (Exploding Runes). Depends on how strategic the enemies are. Do they march right up to the gates and bash them down? Do they hammer the fort from a distance, Fire Giants hurling large boulders while fast-moving worg-mounted archers run skirmishes around the defenders? Does the terrain favor the fort (high ground, moat, etc...) or the enemy? Are their intentions to capture the fort? Destroy it? Slay its defenders? Take prisoners?

Eh, let's say that they're genocidal members of the anti-human Bear Cult sect of giantkind. If they take your stronghold they'll kill all the humans they can find and tear up your infrastructure. Best-case, even if you evacuate and then reoccupy after the giants have left, you're looking at losing a couple hundred children and old folks (some to the giants and some to sickness and disease during the evacuation), about 25,000 gp worth of infrastructure, and 50-100% of the 5000 gp per month you've been raking in from your manufactories in the stronghold.

The orcs have bows but normal orc stats, so they're not particularly skilled at using the bows.

Your stronghold has gates but as mentioned previously, you only have 6-10 NPCs to man them. They're not military-grade gates anyway; let's say they're thick wooden gates, AC 15 and 400 HP to shatter them. Suitable for stopping bandits long enough to kill them. The palisade walls are about the same, 10' high and AC 15 and 600 HP per 10' section, with a 5' wide 10' deep ditch just outside them. Your stronghold is on high ground (crest of a small hill) and the area around it has whatever terrain you want--presumably you'll want the brush all around to have been cut back to a distance of a quarter-mile or more.

You don't know yet what the Fire Giants' tactics will be.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Eh, let's say that they're genocidal members of the anti-human Bear Cult sect of giantkind.

Get everyone making bear costumes NOW!