D&D 5E (2014) [Poll] Hypothetical: Fire Giant difficulty (Combat As War)

[Sunseeker]

Eh, let's say that they're genocidal members of the anti-human Bear Cult sect of giantkind. If they take your stronghold they'll kill all the humans they can find and tear up your infrastructure. Best-case, even if you evacuate and then reoccupy after the giants have left, you're looking at losing a couple hundred children and old folks (some to the giants and some to sickness and disease during the evacuation), about 25,000 gp worth of infrastructure, and 50-100% of the 5000 gp per month you've been raking in from your manufactories in the stronghold.

The orcs have bows but normal orc stats, so they're not particularly skilled at using the bows.

Your stronghold has gates but as mentioned previously, you only have 6-10 NPCs to man them. They're not military-grade gates anyway; let's say they're thick wooden gates, AC 15 and 400 HP to shatter them. Suitable for stopping bandits long enough to kill them. The palisade walls are about the same, 10' high and AC 15 and 600 HP per 10' section, with a 5' wide 10' deep ditch just outside them. Your stronghold is on high ground (crest of a small hill) and the area around it has whatever terrain you want--presumably you'll want the brush all around to have been cut back to a distance of a quarter-mile or more.

You don't know yet what the Fire Giants' tactics will be.

Evacuate. Especially if civilian casualties are a high risk. 24 hours should be enough time to evacuate a small holding. Rig what's left to "self destruct" with Explosive Runes and let the enemy have fun. Unless the party is sufficiently high-enough level to make this a non-challenge.

 

[Henry]

I'd say 11th or 12th - just as the PCs are getting 6th level spells. Lower than that and against 9 essentially mobile siege machines, backed by cavalry and an infiltrator, and as the first replier said, it's time to leave the field.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Evacuate. Especially if civilian casualties are a high risk. 24 hours should be enough time to evacuate a small holding. Rig what's left to "self destruct" with Explosive Runes and let the enemy have fun. Unless the party is sufficiently high-enough level to make this a non-challenge.

As stated in what you quoted, if you evacuate you'll lose about 25,000 gp worth of infrastructure and a couple of hundred children and old folks, and your monthly income will be reduced from 5000 gp/month to somewhere between 0 and 2500 gp/month.

You'd still consider that a fun thing for a DM to have happen to you at 6th-9th level?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Get everyone making bear costumes NOW!

That's the kind "brilliantly plausible" thinking that just might work. If you can persuade the Bear Cult that you and everyone in your stronghold are on their side, they might take over but still leave your population and infrastructure intact. If you talk fast enough, you might even get them to leave you "in charge" on their behalf, which I presume is your plan?

There would be consequences if you leave them in charge permanently or semi-permanently, but if I'm getting your drift correctly, they're not the kind of consequences you would mind having in a story. It would be a lot of fun.

You would definitely be a fun player to have at the table.

 

[Sunseeker]

As stated in what you quoted, if you evacuate you'll lose about 25,000 gp worth of infrastructure and a couple of hundred children and old folks, and your monthly income will be reduced from 5000 gp/month to somewhere between 0 and 2500 gp/month.

You'd still consider that a fun thing for a DM to have happen to you at 6th-9th level?

Well, by "evacuate" I meant take the civvies with us. But still, the loss of some is a superior outcome than the loss of many. I tend to play a paladin or other good-aligned type. Saving people is more important than saving buildings, 2500/mo is still a substantial income.

 

[OB1]

So you'd basically just cede the objective and try to go elsewhere? And you wouldn't find that unfair or jerkish of the DM to put you in that position? Interesting.

Strategic retreat to allow for the growing of your odds of success is sometimes the only answer. I would not find it unfair for the DM to put me in this position, as I feel it could lead to a fun and interesting story.

So the party admits defeat in the current battle, goes out into the world seeking that which will make them strong enough to defeat the giants, have many adventures along the way where they make new friends, allies and enemies, and having obtained the magical sword, return somewhere between level 7 and 9 to take back their home. Classic Hero's journey stuff.

The only way I would find your scenario unfair would be if there was no way to escape the fight, or if I was not given sufficient information to determine that this is an unwinable fight at this level for the party.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'd say 11th or 12th - just as the PCs are getting 6th level spells. Lower than that and against 9 essentially mobile siege machines, backed by cavalry and an infiltrator, and as the first replier said, it's time to leave the field.

This is about what I was thinking initially--that it's an adventure appropriate for 11th-13th level PCs.

I'm quite surprised to see so many replies in the 7th-9th level range, and I'm wary of taking the poll results too seriously because those respondents could be atypical... but I confess that I've run similar (but somewhat easier) scenarios for 3rd level PCs and the players seemed to have a lot of fun with it, so I can see how some players might be fully prepared to enjoy it at any level. The "bear costume" idea is gold! (Especially if the Vampire takes advantage of the situation to, say, attempt to frame the human "bear cultists" for a crime against the Bear Cult, turning this adventure into a theft recovery or murder mystery.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well, by "evacuate" I meant take the civvies with us. But still, the loss of some is a superior outcome than the loss of many. I tend to play a paladin or other good-aligned type. Saving people is more important than saving buildings, 2500/mo is still a substantial income.

I know you'd take the civvies with you. If you're very careful to round up everybody, and you have a way of ensuring enough food for (say) 1000 people for two weeks, and a way of curing illness and disease (you're a paladin after all), you might even be able to reduce the casualty rate down to near-zero. And if you did, I would make sure you definitely felt that you'd accomplished something huge and important by doing so.

 

[Sunseeker]

I know you'd take the civvies with you. If you're very careful to round up everybody, and you have a way of ensuring enough food for (say) 1000 people for two weeks, and a way of curing illness and disease (you're a paladin after all), you might even be able to reduce the casualty rate down to near-zero. And if you did, I would make sure you definitely felt that you'd accomplished something huge and important by doing so.

Ah, wasn't sure quite of the scale of the population of the outpost.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Strategic retreat to allow for the growing of your odds of success is sometimes the only answer. I would not find it unfair for the DM to put me in this position, as I feel it could lead to a fun and interesting story.

So the party admits defeat in the current battle, goes out into the world seeking that which will make them strong enough to defeat the giants, have many adventures along the way where they make new friends, allies and enemies, and having obtained the magical sword, return somewhere between level 7 and 9 to take back their home. Classic Hero's journey stuff.

The only way I would find your scenario unfair would be if there was no way to escape the fight, or if I was not given sufficient information to determine that this is an unwinable fight at this level for the party.

I think I know the answer to this question but I'm going to ask anyway:

Say you evacuate, and the party goes out into the world seeking that which will allow them to defeat the giants and retake their home... and a couple of weeks later you hear that the giants have moved on and are wrecking other human settlements instead now, and/or have been defeated while trying to do so, and that you can relocate yourself and your subjects back to the wreckage of home with (probably) no further risk, unless the vampire is still there. (Or is the vampire here already among you?!)

Would that feel anticlimactic and unfair, to have your new nemesis suddenly yanked away like that?

I think you'd probably say that it doesn't change anything--you'd send your people home and have them start rebuilding, but you've moved on to a new phase of life and you're determined to acquire the means to make sure nothing like this ever happens again to anyone you care about. But let me know if I'm mistaken.